lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 18, 2020 18:11:53 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2020 11:04:54 GMT
Now that is an interesting scenario. The force isn't that powerful in the longer run, because of lack of spares, munitions etc and only 14 a/c may struggle to protect both fleets, although the Japanese will be coming in without escorts and the escorting frigates will help if they go for the carrier. Also it would probably take most of those 4 hours for both sides to get over the shock and accept what's happening so the combined force will be somewhat further north. Plus there might be questions and problems in getting the two forces to communicate let alone be able to work closely together that quickly.
However there's a good chance that they will get away largely undamaged provided the QEII can provide enough cover and the big ships avoid those torpedoes that are launched. This could be useful as according to reports I've read they were really the only air launched ones Japan had in the theatre at the time as well as a good proportion of their longer range torpedo bombers.
The more complex issue will be affects on the wider Malayan and SE Asia campaign. The Japanese have already landed in both N Malaya and southern Thailand and have forces starting to move through the latter by rail so the forces in the later battle aren't going to be materially affected much. How much the up timers can tell the defenders about Japanese actions and how much the defenders will listen and can respond are the key issues. The up time forces can provide improved radar cover and some very formidable fighter cover while the a/c and munitions last but how much difference that would make I don't know and they might be better off being reserved for anti-shipping operations against the Japanese coming for Java and Sumatra later in the campaign.
The big bonus here, again while its munitions and spares last is probably the sub as its likely so fast and powerful that it's pretty much immune to enemy action, unless it gets caught by a mine say and can hit and sink anything. Not sure what its armed with but some cruise missiles, especially if primary for naval attack rather than ground as well as torpedoes can be very effective. OTL the Japanese carriers were sent south early in 42 to escort the landings in Java and most/all of those could quickly go glug which would massively ease the problems for the allies. The carrier's a/c and helicopters can help here as well, provided they have suitable munitions and the helicopters can be protected against Japanese a/c. If the sub can be adapted to use WWII torpedoes then a lot more is possible although they would be less effective.
Ideally the Japanese can be held in northern Malaya, and kept pretty much out of Sumatra and Java which would cause them huge problems as they wouldn't have the forces, or more importantly the transportation for too much more and would be kept away from the bulk of the oilfields they went to war for. Probably not Borneo but hopefully those fields can be at least damaged and later shipments from them see a lot of disruption. This greatly undercuts their entire war effort in the Pacific. Burma might also be saved as the forces committed there could be drawn into the Malaya campaign while with at least a measure of British control of the Bay of Bengal the defenders can be reinforced by sea when forces become available. This could also considerably reduce the Bengal famine as imports from Burma could well still be available.
In the medium term the big issue is how much the force can boost the allied war effort. They can give a lot of background information, although some of that is likely to be unwelcome and possibly disruptive. For instance knowledge of Soviet spies, Soviet massacres in Poland etc and their post-war threat to the west. Churchill won't be happy with the rapid ending of the empire. A lot of people will be even more unhappy with details of future social and political changes.
In technical terms the crews will be able to give some details but I wonder if the gulf between ~2020 and 1941 is so great that they might not be able to do a lot. Although the sheer computing power aboard the up-time vessels will greatly ease a lot of code-breaking and other computing heavy activities. They can give some broad details however and advice on what to develop and what not to, as well as a lot of information on tactics for the Battle of the Atlantic especially.
I suspect that after about mid-42 most of the force will be largely mothballed as their running low on spares and munitions and also its realised the people are far more useful for the information they have than being risked in combat given the limited capacity of the force in the longer run.
In the longer term, up to the present day there is going to be a boost in technological development plus also hopefully a shorter and less destructive WWII and a more successful post war period for Britain. Building on some of the OTL developments in electronics with what the up-timers can supply and a probable Labour victory in 45 with the will and more resources for social and economic reform you could see it staying the 3rd power economically and technologically for a significantly longer while.  Of course people can always f**k this up. 
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 11:34:24 GMT
Now that is an interesting scenario. The force isn't that powerful in the longer run, because of lack of spares, munitions etc and only 14 a/c may struggle to protect both fleets, although the Japanese will be coming in without escorts and the escorting frigates will help if they go for the carrier. Also it would probably take most of those 4 hours for both sides to get over the shock and accept what's happening so the combined force will be somewhat further north. Plus there might be questions and problems in getting the two forces to communicate let alone be able to work closely together that quickly. Well then it will be mostly the anti-air missiles from HMS Diamond, HMS Defender, HMS Kent and HMS Richmond who have to deal with the 88 strong Japanese bomber fleet, it might look like this. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2020 12:07:14 GMT
Now that is an interesting scenario. The force isn't that powerful in the longer run, because of lack of spares, munitions etc and only 14 a/c may struggle to protect both fleets, although the Japanese will be coming in without escorts and the escorting frigates will help if they go for the carrier. Also it would probably take most of those 4 hours for both sides to get over the shock and accept what's happening so the combined force will be somewhat further north. Plus there might be questions and problems in getting the two forces to communicate let alone be able to work closely together that quickly. Well then it will be mostly the anti-air missiles from HMS Diamond, HMS Defender, HMS Kent and HMS Richmond who have to deal with the 88 strong Japanese bomber fleet, it might look like this.
Well, especially once the CSG [Carrier Strike Group] realise what's happened and where they are the a/c can do a lot. Especially since according to reports the Japanese a/c attacked in dribs and drabs over a period of time and the force has vastly superior radar to detect attackers than anything available during WWII. [As well as what people can remember from reading historical details of the attacks.] However would modern missiles be that effective against WWII a/c and how many can they carry? Cannon might be more effective especially given modern targeting methods and how fragile Japanese a/c were although that might require the F-35's getting into range of Japanese defensive fire. Its almost certain however that few of the Japanese a/c are likely to survive the affair. Its just that the more the a/c are used the more likely that some error or material failure could cause losses and the more rapidly their spares and munitions will be exhausted. This won't be a major issue at the time as the primary aim, on which everything else depends is the force surviving. However it does limit their longer term military capacity.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 12:45:48 GMT
Well then it will be mostly the anti-air missiles from HMS Diamond, HMS Defender, HMS Kent and HMS Richmond who have to deal with the 88 strong Japanese bomber fleet, it might look like this. Well, especially once the CSG [Carrier Strike Group] realise what's happened and where they are the a/c can do a lot. Especially since according to reports the Japanese a/c attacked in dribs and drabs over a period of time and the force has vastly superior radar to detect attackers than anything available during WWII. [As well as what people can remember from reading historical details of the attacks.] However would modern missiles be that effective against WWII a/c and how many can they carry? Cannon might be more effective especially given modern targeting methods and how fragile Japanese a/c were although that might require the F-35's getting into range of Japanese defensive fire. Its almost certain however that few of the Japanese a/c are likely to survive the affair. Its just that the more the a/c are used the more likely that some error or material failure could cause losses and the more rapidly their spares and munitions will be exhausted. This won't be a major issue at the time as the primary aim, on which everything else depends is the force surviving. However it does limit their longer term military capacity.
If the Queen has this amount of missiles, the F-35 can carry: Image I Image II |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2020 15:34:17 GMT
Well, especially once the CSG [Carrier Strike Group] realise what's happened and where they are the a/c can do a lot. Especially since according to reports the Japanese a/c attacked in dribs and drabs over a period of time and the force has vastly superior radar to detect attackers than anything available during WWII. [As well as what people can remember from reading historical details of the attacks.] However would modern missiles be that effective against WWII a/c and how many can they carry? Cannon might be more effective especially given modern targeting methods and how fragile Japanese a/c were although that might require the F-35's getting into range of Japanese defensive fire. Its almost certain however that few of the Japanese a/c are likely to survive the affair. Its just that the more the a/c are used the more likely that some error or material failure could cause losses and the more rapidly their spares and munitions will be exhausted. This won't be a major issue at the time as the primary aim, on which everything else depends is the force surviving. However it does limit their longer term military capacity.
If the Queen has this amount of missiles, the F-35 can carry: Image IImage II
That's a hell of a lot. I think the big issue is how much does the QEII carry? Suspect the a/c can burn through the munitions and the fuel pretty damned quickly. Which reminds me I think most modern ships, other than the nukes use gas turbines. Checking the QEII does with supporting diesels. How easily can such fuel be generated in the 1940s, especially in a theatre away from the industrial base, although with refining capacity nearby if it can be protected.
I think after a bit of a time they would rely largely on their guns, checking for the F35B on wiki it says "The F-35B and F-35C have no internal gun and instead can use a Terma A/S multi-mission pod (MMP) carrying the GAU-22/A and 220 rounds; the pod is mounted on the centerline of the aircraft". Presumably it would be possible to generate new rounds for the gun which I think is a 25mm round. Or possibly simply refit with 1940's canons.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 15:37:29 GMT
If the Queen has this amount of missiles, the F-35 can carry: Image IImage II That's a hell of a lot. I think the big issue is how much does the QEII carry? Suspect the a/c can burn through the munitions and the fuel pretty damned quickly. Which reminds me I think most modern ships, other than the nukes use gas turbines. Checking the QEII does with supporting diesels. How easily can such fuel be generated in the 1940s, especially in a theatre away from the industrial base, although with refining capacity nearby if it can be protected. I think after a bit of a time they would rely largely on their guns, checking for the F35B on wiki it says "The F-35B and F-35C have no internal gun and instead can use a Terma A/S multi-mission pod (MMP) carrying the GAU-22/A and 220 rounds; the pod is mounted on the centerline of the aircraft". Presumably it would be possible to generate new rounds for the gun which I think is a 25mm round. Or possibly simply refit with 1940's canons.
Ore we convert the Queen to a regular fleet carrier, is it long enough. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2020 15:46:47 GMT
That's a hell of a lot. I think the big issue is how much does the QEII carry? Suspect the a/c can burn through the munitions and the fuel pretty damned quickly. Which reminds me I think most modern ships, other than the nukes use gas turbines. Checking the QEII does with supporting diesels. How easily can such fuel be generated in the 1940s, especially in a theatre away from the industrial base, although with refining capacity nearby if it can be protected. I think after a bit of a time they would rely largely on their guns, checking for the F35B on wiki it says "The F-35B and F-35C have no internal gun and instead can use a Terma A/S multi-mission pod (MMP) carrying the GAU-22/A and 220 rounds; the pod is mounted on the centerline of the aircraft". Presumably it would be possible to generate new rounds for the gun which I think is a 25mm round. Or possibly simply refit with 1940's canons.
Ore we convert the Queen to a regular fleet carrier, is it long enough.
That's definitely a possibility, using down-time a/c. Its definitely large enough at b66,000 tons and 900'+ It couldn't pass through Panama until the canal there is upgraded, which was being done for the planned Montana class. Given the size of the a/c its designed for the lifts and hanger space should easily be enough. Plus it has the ski-lift which would help I presume.
The big problems is how long could it be fueled and maintained and where could it be docked? Not sure how many ports could actually accept something of that size.
Of course OTL 41/42 a/c would be a big step down in capacity but as long as its electronics and air defence systems are functioning and provided you avoid torpedoes and mines it would be a very useful weapon. Not sure how quickly the FAA could supply the trained men and a/c to operate from it.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 19, 2020 17:45:35 GMT
Redundant. Please disregard.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 19, 2020 17:46:55 GMT
I don't think WWII Prop engine naval aircraft could use a ski-lift/jump. Jets don't have the huge propellers pulling them along. I have never seen footage of any Prop engine aircraft using a ski-jump and can not find any reference to it ever being done either.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 18:28:47 GMT
So can we assume that nuclear submarine might be one of these:  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 20, 2020 6:36:00 GMT
I don't think WWII Prop engine naval aircraft could use a ski-lift/jump. Jets don't have the huge propellers pulling them along. I have never seen footage of any Prop engine aircraft using a ski-jump and can not find any reference to it ever being done either.
Quite possibly right, I'm not a aeronautics expert by any means. Just thinking it helps transfer forward drive to uplift somewhat so might work for prop a/c as well as jets but could be wrong. If so then I think there's a section of deck at the bow not using the lift so would have to use that, or remove the lift section which might be possible.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 20, 2020 6:37:25 GMT
So can we assume that nuclear submarine might be one of these:
I'm assuming a hunter-killer rather than a boomer. If it was the latter then its probably a very short war!  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2020 9:33:52 GMT
So can we assume that nuclear submarine might be one of these: I'm assuming a hunter-killer rather than a boomer. If it was the latter then its probably a very short war! That would be a Astute-class submarine then. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 20, 2020 12:35:13 GMT
So can we assume that nuclear submarine might be one of these:
I'm assuming a hunter-killer rather than a boomer. If it was the latter then its probably a very short war! Now that is a very interesting thought.
Target list for first strike; Berlin, Tokyo, Rome Moscow and wherever Mao is living. I am thinking a decapitation strike at best and early justice for those who started the war. |
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Of course people can always f**k this up. 
