lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2020 14:05:29 GMT
I'm assuming a hunter-killer rather than a boomer. If it was the latter then its probably a very short war!  Now that is a very interesting thought.
Target list for first strike; Berlin, Tokyo, Rome Moscow and wherever Mao is living. I am thinking a decapitation strike at best and early justice for those who started the war. We are speaking about the British, not the Americans who might nuke a city ore two if they could end the war. Also does a Tomahawk need GPS to fly, if so, a Astute-class submarine that carry's some has no use for them. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 20, 2020 17:15:04 GMT
Now that is a very interesting thought.
Target list for first strike; Berlin, Tokyo, Rome Moscow and wherever Mao is living. I am thinking a decapitation strike at best and early justice for those who started the war. We are speaking about the British, not the Americans who might nuke a city ore two if they could end the war. Also does a Tomahawk need GPS to fly, if so, a Astute-class submarine that carry's some has no use for them. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2020 18:08:25 GMT
We are speaking about the British, not the Americans who might nuke a city ore two if they could end the war. Also does a Tomahawk need GPS to fly, if so, a Astute-class submarine that carry's some has no use for them. Unless the British have some nukes on the Queen ore armed nuclear Tomahawks they forgot to mention, it will be a conventional war, unless the British decide to strip the nuclear reactor of the Astute-class and try if possible to make some nukes from that. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 20, 2020 18:54:59 GMT
Touche.  I tried looking up the guidance system for the Tomahawks. Some UNCLASS sources mention INS (inertial Guidance Systems) but I can't find anything that absolutely confirms that.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2020 18:58:26 GMT
Touche. My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 20, 2020 20:52:21 GMT
Touche. My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find. I concur ordering Astute to sink Carriers would be using the limited amount of her Spearfish to the very best strategic advantage.
The 1942 standard RN SS Torp was the 21" Mark VIII and it was still in service in 1983. The Mark VIII could be set for 5,000 yards / 45.5 knots and 7,000 yards / 41 knots.
Astute should have no trouble generating a fire control solution for the Mark VIII.
It would mean it would fit in Astutes Torp tubes but how would you set the speed, depth etc. and start the engine in the tube? I can't believe the solid state, computer driven tube controls could be adapted for the Mark VIII. Replacing Astute's tubes with 1942 ones seems like a very difficult engineering job that would probably compromise the pressure hull. Certainly would require going back to the UK for a long time IMO.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 3:18:04 GMT
My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find. I concur ordering Astute to sink Carriers would be using the limited amount of her Spearfish to the very best strategic advantage.
Also depends if she carries a full loadout of 38 Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes ore has a mix of them and Tomahawk Block IV cruise missiles. Also congratulation on your promotion to Petty Officer 1st Class oscssw. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 8:11:59 GMT
I'm assuming a hunter-killer rather than a boomer. If it was the latter then its probably a very short war! Now that is a very interesting thought.
Target list for first strike; Berlin, Tokyo, Rome Moscow and wherever Mao is living. I am thinking a decapitation strike at best and early justice for those who started the war.
I can't see a strike on Moscow as its technically an ally at this point. Plus if the war was ended quickly by a forced surrender the borders aren't likely to be anything like OTL 1945. Tokyo might well get hit but I'm also doubtful that Rome would be. Both because of its historical and religious importance - as you would be taking out the Papal states as well which would make you rather unpopular with a lot of people - and because many would expect, correctly I suspect, that the devastation of Berlin would bring Italy to overthrow Mussolini and ask for terms.
Mao would be seen as largely an irrelevance at this point and assuming a renewed Chinese civil war at this point the KMT would have a much stronger position.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 8:21:57 GMT
Now that is a very interesting thought.
Target list for first strike; Berlin, Tokyo, Rome Moscow and wherever Mao is living. I am thinking a decapitation strike at best and early justice for those who started the war. We are speaking about the British, not the Americans who might nuke a city ore two if they could end the war. Also does a Tomahawk need GPS to fly, if so, a Astute-class submarine that carry's some has no use for them.
Ah Churchill remember. Also Britain has seen the Blitz and is aware of terror bombing attacks by the Nazis elsewhere. As such and given the chance of ending the war very quickly and on very favourable terms I can see it being at least strongly supported in Britain, although there would be moral objections as there were OTL for the strategic bombing campaign. Possibly if there's enough knowledge on his location the target might 1st be the Wolf's Lair which would have less population casualties and might just decapitate a lot of the Nazi party. Furthermore up-timers can give details as to how long and costly the war OTL was, as well as the levels of Nazi atrocities.
Tokyo might be added onto the list once a strike against Germany doesn't prompt them to surrender - which I suspect would be almost certain to happen.
Good point on the targeting but if we're talking about a boomer, i.e. a SSBM it would be a Trident warhead not a Tomahawk. Not sure how much they would depend on GPS and what alternative targeting methods they might have but ballistic missiles existed long before GPS was in existence. Plus I believe given the cutting back of British nuclear weapons there aren't any tactical nukes in British hands any more so if it was a hunter-killer, while nuclear powered there wouldn't be an easy nuclear option.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 8:25:39 GMT
Touche. My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find.
Yes I accept the initial aim was a Astute class but I just mentioned if it had been a missile sub. In which case it would be a much shorter and less costly war. However going with an Astute then agree, hunting for IJN CVs especially. The up-timers would recognise they were probably the only targets worth using up what up-time torpedoes they have.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 8:28:15 GMT
My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find. I concur ordering Astute to sink Carriers would be using the limited amount of her Spearfish to the very best strategic advantage.
The 1942 standard RN SS Torp was the 21" Mark VIII and it was still in service in 1983. The Mark VIII could be set for 5,000 yards / 45.5 knots and 7,000 yards / 41 knots.
Astute should have no trouble generating a fire control solution for the Mark VIII.
It would mean it would fit in Astutes Torp tubes but how would you set the speed, depth etc. and start the engine in the tube? I can't believe the solid state, computer driven tube controls could be adapted for the Mark VIII. Replacing Astute's tubes with 1942 ones seems like a very difficult engineering job that would probably compromise the pressure hull. Certainly would require going back to the UK for a long time IMO.
That sounds difficult to get use of the sub once its initial weapons are used up. Which is a pity. Hopefully something could be cobbled together as there are a lot of very talented people involved but might well end up impossible. 
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 13:03:01 GMT
My guess would be that after saving Prince of Wales and Repulse the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group would go to Singapore which is still safe and let the Astute-class submarine go on a hunt with orders to sink any Japanese carriers they it can find. Yes I accept the initial aim was a Astute class but I just mentioned if it had been a missile sub. In which case it would be a much shorter and less costly war. However going with an Astute then agree, hunting for IJN CVs especially. The up-timers would recognise they were probably the only targets worth using up what up-time torpedoes they have.
Would one single stingray torpedo be powerful enough to sink a Japanese carrier. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 13:29:50 GMT
I can't see a strike on Moscow as its technically an ally at this point. Plus if the war was ended quickly by a forced surrender the borders aren't likely to be anything like OTL 1945. Tokyo might well get hit but I'm also doubtful that Rome would be. Both because of its historical and religious importance - as you would be taking out the Papal states as well which would make you rather unpopular with a lot of people - and because many would expect, correctly I suspect, that the devastation of Berlin would bring Italy to overthrow Mussolini and ask for terms.
Mao would be seen as largely an irrelevance at this point and assuming a renewed Chinese civil war at this point the KMT would have a much stronger position.
All good points Steve, especially Rome. OK take it off the target list.
Moscow stays on to get rid of uncle Joe. Uptime folks can make it very clear how dangerous that genocidal maniac is AND how important it is to strangle communism. Likewise they can tell Churchill just what Mao has in store for the British Empire. So getting him and his top lieutenants with a nuke is well worth the expenditure.
If the sub is not a Boomer, I agree with lordroel very unlikely the QE's CSG would be carrying any nukes.
IMHO, this timeline seems to have very limited impact on WWII as a whole with the exception of astute taking out IJN carriers. Singapore still falls. Japanese still get the oil. US fleet still at the bottom of Pearl harbor. Advanced technological to far advanced not to be replicated for decades. Knowledge of what will happen would be very useful for a while but once that knowledge is used to change the war it will quickly become unreliable. Far too few aircraft, spares and advanced ammunition to do much beyond some local success.
An IJN BB/cruiser/DD force could sink the carrier and all her escorts under the right conditions, especially if astute is off hunting carriers. Long Lance, 14 and 8 inch guns behind armor would be formidable, especially manned by the 1941 IJN.
I would think sending a Gulf war US BB back would buy a lot more bang. We know they carried some Nuke TLAMS and the technology would be far more likely to be usable during the war. It would also be more compatible with mid 40's logistics. Not much help for Repulse and POW and might be sunk by the same Japanese bombers though radar fire control of her 5 inch 38's with VT fuses and her CIWS might just save her.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 13:45:46 GMT
I concur ordering Astute to sink Carriers would be using the limited amount of her Spearfish to the very best strategic advantage.
Also depends if she carries a full loadout of 38 Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes ore has a mix of them and Tomahawk Block IV cruise missiles. Also congratulation on your promotion to Petty Officer 1st Class oscssw .
Thank you. If my old shipmates hear of this I'll be classified as a "Rate Grabber". USN slang for someone who advances much faster than his contemporaries usually implying he did not make it on his merits but by brown nosing his superiors.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 13:56:48 GMT
Also depends if she carries a full loadout of 38 Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes ore has a mix of them and Tomahawk Block IV cruise missiles. Also congratulation on your promotion to Petty Officer 1st Class oscssw .
Thank you. If my old shipmates hear of this I'll be classified as a "Rate Grabber". USN slang for someone who advances much faster than his contemporaries usually implying he did not make it on his merits but by brown nosing his superiors. Well next target for you is Chief petty officer. |
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