oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 14:14:24 GMT
Thank you. If my old shipmates hear of this I'll be classified as a "Rate Grabber". USN slang for someone who advances much faster than his contemporaries usually implying he did not make it on his merits but by brown nosing his superiors.  Well next target for you is Chief petty officer. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 14:16:54 GMT
Well next target for you is Chief petty officer. Several trolls who so far have not made any mistake, unlike some others Trolls who write the daily updates to some wars in realtime. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 14:52:12 GMT
Several trolls who so far have not made any mistake, unlike some others Trolls who write the daily updates to some wars in realtime.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 15:03:29 GMT
Several trolls who so far have not made any mistake, unlike some others Trolls who write the daily updates to some wars in realtime. Do not think you have to worry about anything, they have so far not refuse any promotion on this forum sins it started. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 15:08:59 GMT
Yes I accept the initial aim was a Astute class but I just mentioned if it had been a missile sub. In which case it would be a much shorter and less costly war. However going with an Astute then agree, hunting for IJN CVs especially. The up-timers would recognise they were probably the only targets worth using up what up-time torpedoes they have.
Would one single stingray torpedo be powerful enough to sink a Japanese carrier. The stingray is a light weight ASW Torp with a 100 lb. warhead. If it is like US Light weight Torps, it has safety that precludes it from attacking surface ships. I am not knowledgeable enough to know if that safety is hard wired and if it can be deactivated. If it can I'd guess it might do prop damage but not much to the hull.
Now if you actually meant Spearfish that is a different story. No doubt a good shot of 660 Lb. Aluminised PBX. detonating under the hull of the IJN CV would break the keel and that owuld be a mission kill at minimum, might even sink it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 15:14:50 GMT
Would one single stingray torpedo be powerful enough to sink a Japanese carrier. The stingray is a light weight ASW Torp with a 100 lb. warhead. If it is like US Light weight Torps, it has safety that precludes it from attacking surface ships. I am not knowledgeable enough to know if that safety is hard wired and if it can be deactivated. If it can I'd guess it might do prop damage but not much to the hull.
Now if you actually meant Spearfish that is a different story. No doubt a good shot of 660 Lb. Aluminised PBX. detonating under the hull of the IJN CV would break the keel and that owuld be a mission kill at minimum, might even sink it.
It is also mentioned that some of the Wildcats taking part will be armed with the new Martlet missile. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 21, 2020 16:08:58 GMT
Re Martlet.
Does not impress me very much as a ship killer. 6.6 lb. warhead is about the same as the Otto Maleria 76mm.
Does have a good standoff (For WWII) range of about 5 miles.
It is precision guided so best chance would be targeting the ready service Long Lance torps on deck.
From what I read it also has an air to air mode. At Mach 1.5 against a 300 MPH or less aircraft that 6.6 lb fragmentation warhead with a laser proximity sensor would be pretty damn effective.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2020 16:17:53 GMT
Re Martlet.
Does not impress me very much as a ship killer. 6.6 lb. warhead is about the same as the Otto Maleria 76mm.
Does have a good standoff (For WWII) range of about 5 miles.
It is precision guided so best chance would be targeting the ready service Long Lance torps on deck.
From what I read it also has an air to air mode. At Mach 1.5 against a 300 MPH or less aircraft that 6.6 lb fragmentation warhead with a laser proximity sensor would be pretty damn effective. Well its the only thing the Wildcat has for a air to ship missile, the Sea Venom (missile) which replaces the retired Sea Skua as the punch of Wildcat helicopters, but it is only due to enter RN service in 2022, to late for the Wildcats operating with the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group. YouTube (A Royal Navy Wildcat successfully conducted test-firing of the Martlet missile) |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2020 10:05:14 GMT
I can't see a strike on Moscow as its technically an ally at this point. Plus if the war was ended quickly by a forced surrender the borders aren't likely to be anything like OTL 1945. Tokyo might well get hit but I'm also doubtful that Rome would be. Both because of its historical and religious importance - as you would be taking out the Papal states as well which would make you rather unpopular with a lot of people - and because many would expect, correctly I suspect, that the devastation of Berlin would bring Italy to overthrow Mussolini and ask for terms.
Mao would be seen as largely an irrelevance at this point and assuming a renewed Chinese civil war at this point the KMT would have a much stronger position.
All good points Steve, especially Rome. OK take it off the target list.
Moscow stays on to get rid of uncle Joe. Uptime folks can make it very clear how dangerous that genocidal maniac is AND how important it is to strangle communism. Likewise they can tell Churchill just what Mao has in store for the British Empire. So getting him and his top lieutenants with a nuke is well worth the expenditure.
If the sub is not a Boomer, I agree with lordroel very unlikely the QE's CSG would be carrying any nukes.
IMHO, this timeline seems to have very limited impact on WWII as a whole with the exception of astute taking out IJN carriers. Singapore still falls. Japanese still get the oil. US fleet still at the bottom of Pearl harbor. Advanced technological to far advanced not to be replicated for decades. Knowledge of what will happen would be very useful for a while but once that knowledge is used to change the war it will quickly become unreliable. Far too few aircraft, spares and advanced ammunition to do much beyond some local success.
An IJN BB/cruiser/DD force could sink the carrier and all her escorts under the right conditions, especially if astute is off hunting carriers. Long Lance, 14 and 8 inch guns behind armor would be formidable, especially manned by the 1941 IJN.
I would think sending a Gulf war US BB back would buy a lot more bang. We know they carried some Nuke TLAMS and the technology would be far more likely to be usable during the war. It would also be more compatible with mid 40's logistics. Not much help for Repulse and POW and might be sunk by the same Japanese bombers though radar fire control of her 5 inch 38's with VT fuses and her CIWS might just save her.
Well we're getting somewhat off topic as Lordroel's made clear its an Astute but I would still disagree with Moscow and Mao. For the following reasons a) The Soviets are still valued allies at this stage to both London and possibly even more so Washington and it would be politically very costly to suddenly launch an unprovoked attack, especially with a nuclear weapon. Especially just with some details from a group from the future who people are having problems accepting what they say about numerous other things. Plus given the political situation at this point with German forces on the outskirts of Moscow, besieging Leningrad and entering Rostov a sudden German surrender enforced by British use of those super weapons that have fallen into their hands is going to leave them in a much weaker position. At the most they will get back their pre-1939 border. Also you should consider, since the up-timers are aware of how destructive their nukes are, that they may refuse to perform such an attack.
b) Mao is a minor figure at this point so its unlikely he would be considered a worthwhile target. In terms of hostility towards Britain and its position in China I don't think there was frankly that much difference between him and Chiang. Both wanted to remove foreign influence as much as possible and while both were [now or later] linked with foreign powers for support neither were that close to Britain, the traditional dominant power in China, albeit that Britain had provided a lot of aid in the 1st years of the Japanese invasion. Plus given he's hidden in a fairly undeveloped hilly area you might need mutual hits to secure his death, which would be massive overkill.
On the main thread line I think you might be being too pessimistic. Yes the landings have occurred in the Kra peninsula and the defenders are heavily outclassed in terms of equipment and training. However given a sufficient rocket to the people in charge in Malaya there's a decent chance that enough can be changed to at least hold in Malaya until aid arrives from the ME. Plus the survival of the 'fleet' plus the addition of the QE2 battlegroup makes any further landings on the east coast very risky. They can also possibly do some ground attack or simply air superiority activity to deny the Japanese the latter which would be a considerable boost. At the very least the bulk of the 80 odd bombers involved in the OTL attack on Force Z are going to be lost and that will be a blow to the Japanese.
Even more so the IJN is going to face serious problems invading Java and related areas. Even apart from that Japan doesn't know exactly what's happened but that the British have received very powerful reinforcements an attempt to launch an amphibious invasion is going to face two capital ships and a very large and apparently powerful carrier while they won't know at 1st about the SSN. They can reinforce from the rest of the fleet and I think at least a good chunk of KB supported the landings in Feb 42 but a good chunk of them could go glug here very quickly. Especially since the up-timers will have good knowledge of what happened historically and while there will be butterflies the enemy are limited by time and logistics.
One thing the defenders might do is send QE2 and a couple of escorts to west of Malaya while the other two, with their advanced weaponry and electronics stay with the WWII force. Providing AA fire and radar detection to help defend against the Japanese a/c and ships and also targeting info for F-35's from QE2 and the Astute. Of course a lot depends on what munitions are available and how quickly their consumed.
Its definitely too late to prevent Pearl, as that was a couple of days before the force arrived. However the core of the IJN could suffer a similar or even more destruction loss, as their going to be sunk at sea rather than in a shallow harbour. Albeit probably extending over 2-3 months.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2020 10:31:07 GMT
Would one single stingray torpedo be powerful enough to sink a Japanese carrier. The stingray is a light weight ASW Torp with a 100 lb. warhead. If it is like US Light weight Torps, it has safety that precludes it from attacking surface ships. I am not knowledgeable enough to know if that safety is hard wired and if it can be deactivated. If it can I'd guess it might do prop damage but not much to the hull.
Now if you actually meant Spearfish that is a different story. No doubt a good shot of 660 Lb. Aluminised PBX. detonating under the hull of the IJN CV would break the keel and that owuld be a mission kill at minimum, might even sink it.
Given the problems of damage control that the Japanese had I suspect a broke keel at sea would probably be fatal. If nothing else a crippled ship would either slow down the entire force, which while under attack from an enemy they have no real chance to counter or even defend against their unlikely to find acceptable, or be abandon. If the latter then even if the crew are left aboard to try and limp it back to a friendly port its going to be very vulnerable to a downtime follow up attack.
Checking the wiki for the Spearfish_torpedo while designed with fast deep diving Soviet subs it also have an under the keel capacity for surface targets so should be fairly effective. The link is quite old as it refers to an upgrade programme which is due to complete by 2019 but the basic details should be accurate.
Checking on the Astute it says:
As far as the Tomahawk's Wiki say that for Britain
This has the problem that their designed for non-nuclear ground attack so probably no use for anti-ship missions and probably little effects against WWII ground targets where you really want massed firepower. Possibly a few targets, say an important railway bridge might be a suitable use. Hopefully however given the Astute's primary role the bulk of the armament would be the Spearfish.
The Astute's reactor will last for 25 years and can be used to recycle water and air it should have ~15 years further use - which is likely to be curtailed by lack of spares but should be enough for at least a year or two. It can carry food for ~3 months travel so the last thing it might do when all torpedoes are used up if they can't find a fix for using downtime ones, would probably be a return trip to the UK so it can be used to provide information - plus possibly some power generation.
Anyway some ideas for an initial set up. Sounds like a lot of hell for the IJN coming up and hopefully the derailing of their entire war effort with Malaya, Sumatra and Java avoiding conquest. A number of other areas will be lost but other than Borneo which also has some oil but hopefully much of the capacity can be destroyed before being occupied just about everything Japan went to war with the western powers for will be beyond their reach.
Of course there will be the rest of the war still to come, including that in Europe which can hopefully be useful aided by their information and the much reduced threat from Japan and then the impact of people from 2020 with their knowledge and values.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 22, 2020 13:10:53 GMT
The stingray is a light weight ASW Torp with a 100 lb. warhead. If it is like US Light weight Torps, it has safety that precludes it from attacking surface ships. I am not knowledgeable enough to know if that safety is hard wired and if it can be deactivated. If it can I'd guess it might do prop damage but not much to the hull.
Now if you actually meant Spearfish that is a different story. No doubt a good shot of 660 Lb. Aluminised PBX. detonating under the hull of the IJN CV would break the keel and that owuld be a mission kill at minimum, might even sink it.
Given the problems of damage control that the Japanese had I suspect a broke keel at sea would probably be fatal. If nothing else a crippled ship would either slow down the entire force, which while under attack from an enemy they have no real chance to counter or even defend against their unlikely to find acceptable, or be abandon. If the latter then even if the crew are left aboard to try and limp it back to a friendly port its going to be very vulnerable to a downtime follow up attack.
Checking the wiki for the Spearfish_torpedo while designed with fast deep diving Soviet subs it also have an under the keel capacity for surface targets so should be fairly effective. The link is quite old as it refers to an upgrade programme which is due to complete by 2019 but the basic details should be accurate.
Checking on the Astute it says:
As far as the Tomahawk's Wiki say that for Britain
This has the problem that their designed for non-nuclear ground attack so probably no use for anti-ship missions and probably little effects against WWII ground targets where you really want massed firepower. Possibly a few targets, say an important railway bridge might be a suitable use. Hopefully however given the Astute's primary role the bulk of the armament would be the Spearfish.
The Astute's reactor will last for 25 years and can be used to recycle water and air it should have ~15 years further use - which is likely to be curtailed by lack of spares but should be enough for at least a year or two. It can carry food for ~3 months travel so the last thing it might do when all torpedoes are used up if they can't find a fix for using downtime ones, would probably be a return trip to the UK so it can be used to provide information - plus possibly some power generation.
Anyway some ideas for an initial set up. Sounds like a lot of hell for the IJN coming up and hopefully the derailing of their entire war effort with Malaya, Sumatra and Java avoiding conquest. A number of other areas will be lost but other than Borneo which also has some oil but hopefully much of the capacity can be destroyed before being occupied just about everything Japan went to war with the western powers for will be beyond their reach.
Of course there will be the rest of the war still to come, including that in Europe which can hopefully be useful aided by their information and the much reduced threat from Japan and then the impact of people from 2020 with their knowledge and values.
Steve
I think you have Spearfish confused with stingray. " Checking the wiki for the Spearfish_torpedo while designed with fast deep diving Soviet subs it also have an under the keel capacity for surface targets so should be fairly effective. The link is quite old as it refers to an upgrade programme which is due to complete by 2019 but the basic details should be accurate."
One point to consider is just how much of a ammo and spares loadout would the QE and her escorts have. If I understand the scenario correctly it was a peacetime deployment. Even during the cold war we in the USN did not have full war loadout of munitions on routine peacetime deployments. Given the chronic underfunding of the RN I just don't think those magazines and store rooms would have more than a few weapons and minimum spares. Based on that and the very small size of both the surface and air units of the QE CSG I just don't see it accomplishing much.
Final point, Churchill had no delusions about Uncle Joe and Mao. He was a staunch ant-communist who understood communism was as dangerous, in the long run, as fascism to the western Democracies. He was not listened to when he was begging the west to strangle the Nazis in the cradle and this would be an opportunity to right that mistake for both fascism and communism.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2020 14:37:00 GMT
We do have a issuse, ore is it, there is another Queen Elizabeth in service, namely the Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, currently serving with the Mediterranean Fleet and to be involved in the Raid on Alexandria (1941), 10 days after the appearance of the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2020 15:17:14 GMT
We do have a issuse, ore is it, there is another Queen Elizabeth in service, namely the Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, currently serving with the Mediterranean Fleet and to be involved in the Raid on Alexandria (1941), 10 days after the appearance of the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group.
That would cause some confusion. Possibly the new ship could be renamed HMS Princess Elizabeth? [Have heard some reference to the ship not being named after the queen but that does seem unlikely and it could in this case be ignored anyway for convenience. ]
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2020 15:22:16 GMT
We do have a issuse, ore is it, there is another Queen Elizabeth in service, namely the Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, currently serving with the Mediterranean Fleet and to be involved in the Raid on Alexandria (1941), 10 days after the appearance of the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group. That would cause some confusion. Possibly the new ship could be renamed HMS Princess Elizabeth? [Have heard some reference to the ship not being named after the queen but that does seem unlikely and it could in this case be ignored anyway for convenience. ]
Well there can also be two Queens, doubt the crew of the carrier will like having the name after their monarch gone just to have a old battleship keep here name. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2020 15:27:28 GMT
Given the problems of damage control that the Japanese had I suspect a broke keel at sea would probably be fatal. If nothing else a crippled ship would either slow down the entire force, which while under attack from an enemy they have no real chance to counter or even defend against their unlikely to find acceptable, or be abandon. If the latter then even if the crew are left aboard to try and limp it back to a friendly port its going to be very vulnerable to a downtime follow up attack.
Checking the wiki for the Spearfish_torpedo while designed with fast deep diving Soviet subs it also have an under the keel capacity for surface targets so should be fairly effective. The link is quite old as it refers to an upgrade programme which is due to complete by 2019 but the basic details should be accurate.
Checking on the Astute it says:
As far as the Tomahawk's Wiki say that for Britain
This has the problem that their designed for non-nuclear ground attack so probably no use for anti-ship missions and probably little effects against WWII ground targets where you really want massed firepower. Possibly a few targets, say an important railway bridge might be a suitable use. Hopefully however given the Astute's primary role the bulk of the armament would be the Spearfish.
The Astute's reactor will last for 25 years and can be used to recycle water and air it should have ~15 years further use - which is likely to be curtailed by lack of spares but should be enough for at least a year or two. It can carry food for ~3 months travel so the last thing it might do when all torpedoes are used up if they can't find a fix for using downtime ones, would probably be a return trip to the UK so it can be used to provide information - plus possibly some power generation.
Anyway some ideas for an initial set up. Sounds like a lot of hell for the IJN coming up and hopefully the derailing of their entire war effort with Malaya, Sumatra and Java avoiding conquest. A number of other areas will be lost but other than Borneo which also has some oil but hopefully much of the capacity can be destroyed before being occupied just about everything Japan went to war with the western powers for will be beyond their reach.
Of course there will be the rest of the war still to come, including that in Europe which can hopefully be useful aided by their information and the much reduced threat from Japan and then the impact of people from 2020 with their knowledge and values.
Steve
I think you have Spearfish confused with stingray. " Checking the wiki for the Spearfish_torpedo while designed with fast deep diving Soviet subs it also have an under the keel capacity for surface targets so should be fairly effective. The link is quite old as it refers to an upgrade programme which is due to complete by 2019 but the basic details should be accurate."
One point to consider is just how much of a ammo and spares loadout would the QE and her escorts have. If I understand the scenario correctly it was a peacetime deployment. Even during the cold war we in the USN did not have full war loadout of munitions on routine peacetime deployments. Given the chronic underfunding of the RN I just don't think those magazines and store rooms would have more than a few weapons and minimum spares. Based on that and the very small size of both the surface and air units of the QE CSG I just don't see it accomplishing much.
Final point, Churchill had no delusions about Uncle Joe and Mao. He was a staunch ant-communist who understood communism was as dangerous, in the long run, as fascism to the western Democracies. He was not listened to when he was begging the west to strangle the Nazis in the cradle and this would be an opportunity to right that mistake for both fascism and communism.
Actually I was referring to what you said about the Spearfish. That it would be more effective than the lightweight Stringray and that a keel break due to an explosion below it would very likely kill the target, even if not immediately.
You do have a nasty point about the ships probably being less than fully loaded with spares and munitions. British governments, especially in the last ~50 years have been rather notorious about cutting corners on matters like that to reduce defence spending in ways that don't immediately seem to affect the fighting efficiency, although of course when push comes to shove it does, sometimes drastically so. Unless the ASB, as well as bringing them through time is also willing to stock them up.
We will have to differ about Stalin and Mao. Churchill didn't like the communists and the info the up-timers will supply will deepen that but it would be politically very costly, probably fatally so, for him to attempt a nuclear strike on an allied capital. Not to mention it would mean war with the Soviet Union when Britain needs some settlement so it can bring some measure of peace and stability to Europe.
Steve
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