4 August 1914 - Poland of July 1930, Russia of June 1919 and Imperial Japan of 8 February 1905 ISOT

[stevep]

Oct 25, 2024 8:20:11 GMT 575 said:

Oct 24, 2024 22:05:21 GMT stevep said:

  Well that's good for Poland and for Austria but not good for Germany.  I very much suspect given his character Wilhelm will be angry at both the Polish response and what he will see as Vienna's 'betrayal.  Of course if the latter arrives before he responds to the former he might change his mind but I think that's unlikely.  I assume there was a deadline for a Germany response as Poland can't afford to wait too long.

  Which is probably a good thing for the western powers as well as Germany if it was prepared to accept its eastern losses and Austrian neutrality could probably win although it would be bloody.

  I suspect that in TTL Italy will stay neutral unless something changes Austria's position.  I doubt Italy would feel like potentially fighting Austria on its own, even with the losses Austria has taken and the incentive for the allies to want Italy in the war has largely disappeared.  - I doubt Italy would be willing to send troops to France and it can't really grab any German colonies so there's nothing really for them to gain from a war with Germany alone so while it might be politically useful for the allies to have Italy as a co-belligerent but there's not really great pressure on the allies to offer say Tunisia to Italy or for Italy to join a conflict they have nothing to really gain from.

  There might be a chance that Berlin might seek to win Italy over but with Austria neutral I don't think Rome would find any such idea attractive as they would be faced with a massive allied naval superiority which would be very bad for them.

A-H have to choose what they are able to handle. With the keeping out of Italy and its lust for A-H lands along the Adriatic there would be no other way.

I don't see Germany accepting any losses in the East - remember somebody writing of East Prussia as "Sacred Lands" to Williams line as it was the lands that made them Kings.

Do agree on Italy - Germany may try to entice it but its idea of using the Italian Army in A-L for Operation Bär was a no go with the Italians so likely an Entante proposal of shuttling Italian troops to eastern France would be so too. Offering Italy French Med coast and Tunesia would probably make as little impact as it did OTL.

  Agree.  Many in Italy wanted the return of Nice and Savoy and also sought to control Tunisia - in which I think the majority of European settlers were from Italy - but I wasn't aware that France had made such an offer?  Know Italy got none of those territories but were offered lands from Austria in the north and Adriatic which they did so I assumed France rejected such an approach?

[575]

Oct 25, 2024 9:13:17 GMT stevep said:

Oct 25, 2024 8:20:11 GMT 575 said:

A-H have to choose what they are able to handle. With the keeping out of Italy and its lust for A-H lands along the Adriatic there would be no other way.

I don't see Germany accepting any losses in the East - remember somebody writing of East Prussia as "Sacred Lands" to Williams line as it was the lands that made them Kings.

Do agree on Italy - Germany may try to entice it but its idea of using the Italian Army in A-L for Operation Bär was a no go with the Italians so likely an Entante proposal of shuttling Italian troops to eastern France would be so too. Offering Italy French Med coast and Tunesia would probably make as little impact as it did OTL.

  Agree.  Many in Italy wanted the return of Nice and Savoy and also sought to control Tunisia - in which I think the majority of European settlers were from Italy - but I wasn't aware that France had made such an offer?  Know Italy got none of those territories but were offered lands from Austria in the north and Adriatic which they did so I assumed France rejected such an approach?

Ehm - my bad not making myself clear - no France didn't offer parts of its territory or colonies; that was the Central Powers offer.

Have edited the post.

[stevep]

Oct 25, 2024 9:19:54 GMT 575 said:

Oct 25, 2024 9:13:17 GMT stevep said:

  Agree.  Many in Italy wanted the return of Nice and Savoy and also sought to control Tunisia - in which I think the majority of European settlers were from Italy - but I wasn't aware that France had made such an offer?  Know Italy got none of those territories but were offered lands from Austria in the north and Adriatic which they did so I assumed France rejected such an approach?

Ehm - my bad not making myself clear - no France didn't offer parts of its territory or colonies; that was the Central Powers offer.

Have edited the post.

  OK thanks. 

[575]

Polish Army 8 August
The Polish Army were confident that it would be able to handle the Soviets once they should get their gear together by use of the available intelligence and what may be intercepted.
The Army was also confident that it would be able to handle the Germans mainly with time to mobilize.
As the Army advanced up the border with East Prussia the first firefight with the Germans happened – already the day before the Border Guards had been seeing German troops move up on the border southwest of Ilava were the north-south and east-west railways crossed and moving up on the borderline.
Earlier today the German Uhlans had returned and demanded the Polish Border Guards to step aside and a short firefight had erupted. Now the Germans were building up on their side of the border.
The Polish Infantry Division got information from its assigned air reconnaisance that the Germans were moving infantry and artillery south of Ilava with artillery being positioned.
A Polish colonel tried getting to talk with the Germans but were rejected. During his return to the Polish side shots were fired by the Germans.
Anticipating the worst the Polish Division ordered its reconnaisance bombers to arm up for bombing German artillery once hostilities commenced and more troops moved up to the border.

The Polish didn't have to wait long as the German barrage started within half an hour; Polish bombers were sent off to bomb the artillery and the section of border erupted into fighting.
With his forward artillery battery silenced by airattack and his troops running into machinegun fire v. Francois, Commander German 1. Corps, called off the attack and withdrew his assault troops. This was something unexpected.

[575]

Poland 9 August
More Infantry divisions and Cavalry brigades move to close off East Prussia on land.
Army air reconnaisance is active along the border. The front at Ilava once again see a German attack with more distand artillerysupport. With more airsupport this is also silenced.
Some German troops had fired at the aircraft with their rifles and tried elevating machinguns in different ways to have a shoot at them and managed to hit a couple of the Polish aircraft.

In Poznan area the Polish army is moving up the Tank Regiment, 3 Cavalry Brigades and 4 Infantry divisions for going the initial 85 km's from the border to Frankfurt an der Oder – hopefully capturing at least the railwaybridge intact but the bridge connecting Dammvorstadt on the east bank of the Oder with the west bank would only speed up operations.
Going for Frankfurt eliminated the Seelöwe Hights being traversed as these were further north west of the Oder which would then have been crossed at Küstrin which was a heavily fortified position though would only have a skeleton manning.
There was two Barracks in the western part of Frankfurt a.d. Oder – one infantry (12. Grenadier Regiment), one field artillery. Some cadre might be in place to bring reserves up to service standard and could be used to defend the crossing. This however should be a force to be brushed aside by the Tank Regiment or Infantry though the Infantry would need two days march to approach Frankfurt a.d. O.
Here reconnaisance aircraft is also scouting the area for signs of German troops.

On the Baltic the German fleet is still occasionally shelling the ports. During one of these a sortie of the two surviving Torpedoboats firing torpedoes scare the German cruisers off to sea though one Torpedoboat is damaged by German gunfire.
The Baltic Fleet following this is using its Submarines to keep close watch on the Polish shore.

[575]

Gdynia 10 August
A couple of Polish reconnaisance aircraft spot the German fleet off the Polish coast. Some shots are fired from the German ships but no aircraft is hit.
Half an hour later with the reconnaisance aircraft still in the vicinity two larger aircraft arrive in the distance. Still distand about 5 fathoms off the larger aircraft suddenly make splashes on the surface and then wheers off going for the coast.
Its only a few minutes before klaxons are sounded and yells of ”Torpedo incoming” that the German ships see frantic activity and spreading out to avoid danger. In the panic a Cruiser runs over a Torpedoboat that don't get out of its course.

The reconnaisance planes are relieved following the Torpedo attack by other aircraft and go to base to report the effect.

On the East Prussian border the battle of Ilava is still running with the Polish commander building up for taking the offensive. Further east terrain is not suited for large scale operations due to lack of roads and railways which are mainly confined to the Bialystok – Königsberg railway.

The Dutch military had tried the Fokker F-VII/3m as a bomber and as well a torpedobomber. Knowning of this the Poles had decided to have a go on this against the German Navy to possibly get them at least partly off their coastline.

[575]

West Front 11 August
The first two German Corps and a Cavalry Division is loaded onto trains and begin the journey East. Two other Corps are being marched to railway yards to prepare their movement.

At Berlin the Imperial Guards Wachtregiment Berlin had been donning feldgrau instead of ceremonial uniforms and reconnitering the area east of Berlin to prepare for the Landwehr formations pulled out of Schleswig-Holstein and moved to Berlin that began arriving.
Those Landwehr brigades were sent east to establish a trip-wire pending the arrival of the West Front reinforcements of ”real” troops.
Relying on old men who hadn't held a rifle in their hands for a decade or so didn't appeal to the General Staff building the basics for the defence of the Imperial Capital.
Though the Landwehr Brigades had organic artillery this was only 1 Battery of 4x 100mm guns and only the field cache had been carried on with the depot getting moved later thus the artillery was merely for selfprotection and not offensive employment – but the Landwehr as such were for local defence.
The artillery usually being Landsturm made the personnel being even older than that of the rest of the Brigade and in need of more training than already been carried out. Thankfully the Brigades moved to Berlin comprised the 37 Brigade which had a full Landwehr Artillery Battalion though still it too was in need of refresher training.

Some private aircraft had been requested for Army use and had been flown east towards Küstrin and Frankfurt – two crossings on the Oder with railways leading to Berlin to establish the whereabouts of the Poles.
None carried radio and none returned from their scouting missions.

Telegrams of ”get moving” was sent from Berlin to the West Front Army HQ's.

[stevep]

Oct 27, 2024 7:57:04 GMT 575 said:

West Front 11 August
The first two German Corps and a Cavalry Division is loaded onto trains and begin the journey East. Two other Corps are being marched to railway yards to prepare their movement.

At Berlin the Imperial Guards Wachtregiment Berlin had been donning feldgrau instead of ceremonial uniforms and reconnitering the area east of Berlin to prepare for the Landwehr formations pulled out of Schleswig-Holstein and moved to Berlin that began arriving.
Those Landwehr brigades were sent east to establish a trip-wire pending the arrival of the West Front reinforcements of ”real” troops.
Relying on old men who hadn't held a rifle in their hands for a decade or so didn't appeal to the General Staff building the basics for the defence of the Imperial Capital.
Though the Landwehr Brigades had organic artillery this was only 1 Battery of 4x 100mm guns and only the field cache had been carried on with the depot getting moved later thus the artillery was merely for selfprotection and not offensive employment – but the Landwehr as such were for local defence.
The artillery usually being Landsturm made the personnel being even older than that of the rest of the Brigade and in need of more training than already been carried out. Thankfully the Brigades moved to Berlin comprised the 37 Brigade which had a full Landwehr Artillery Battalion though still it too was in need of refresher training.

Some private aircraft had been requested for Army use and had been flown east towards Küstrin and Frankfurt – two crossings on the Oder with railways leading to Berlin to establish the whereabouts of the Poles.
None carried radio and none returned from their scouting missions.

Telegrams of ”get moving” was sent from Berlin to the West Front Army HQ's.

  Oh dear those early aircraft were so fragile and unreliable.  I think at least some of the German commanders will suspect that means trouble.  Wonder if the last bit about get moving was about sending those 4 corp east or the rest of the army to take Paris or a bit of both?

  I must admit that 4 corps was more than I realised and with the Landwehr which although elderly and poorly equipped will be defending their homes its going to get bloody for both sides on the Eastern or Polish front, whatever its called.  Of course this raises questions about how this movement will affect the offensive in the west.  Checking my WWI source book in the opening months there were 8 armies containing 25 corps.  As such 4 Corps, especially with forces already lost in the east, is a significant proportion.  It could be that some of the 4 will be taken from the southern front   Checking wiki it mentions the 1st army that historically defeated the Russian in E Prussia contained 4 corps so if this was lost in total that means 4 corps from the western front means 8 removed in total which would reduce the western front to 17 corp.  However would expect at least some of 1st army would be in E Prussia and not affected by the ISOT.

  One thing I thought of overnight.  While they probably won't have the best of relations with Czarist officers leading the Whites would they seek some sort of diplomatic relations with one or two of them with an attempt to get them to recognise both Polish independence and the current Polish borders.  They know that the Whites lost OTL and there might be news already, with the disappearance of foreign forces that had been helping the Whites that the situation could be worse - although the Soviets have also lost forces.  The Poles can't really supply equipment but they could supply information on weaponry, tactics and the like.  Even if the effect is just to make the Whites last longer and hence win time for the issue with Germany to be resolved and weaken the Soviets.

  The other obvious step, since Germany has determined on war with Poland would be to seek a formal alliance with the western powers.  Who if their started to realise what has happened to Russia and gotten info from their diplomats in Poland should be more than willing.

[575]

Oct 27, 2024 10:33:53 GMT stevep said:

Oct 27, 2024 7:57:04 GMT 575 said:

West Front 11 August
The first two German Corps and a Cavalry Division is loaded onto trains and begin the journey East. Two other Corps are being marched to railway yards to prepare their movement.

At Berlin the Imperial Guards Wachtregiment Berlin had been donning feldgrau instead of ceremonial uniforms and reconnitering the area east of Berlin to prepare for the Landwehr formations pulled out of Schleswig-Holstein and moved to Berlin that began arriving.
Those Landwehr brigades were sent east to establish a trip-wire pending the arrival of the West Front reinforcements of ”real” troops.
Relying on old men who hadn't held a rifle in their hands for a decade or so didn't appeal to the General Staff building the basics for the defence of the Imperial Capital.
Though the Landwehr Brigades had organic artillery this was only 1 Battery of 4x 100mm guns and only the field cache had been carried on with the depot getting moved later thus the artillery was merely for selfprotection and not offensive employment – but the Landwehr as such were for local defence.
The artillery usually being Landsturm made the personnel being even older than that of the rest of the Brigade and in need of more training than already been carried out. Thankfully the Brigades moved to Berlin comprised the 37 Brigade which had a full Landwehr Artillery Battalion though still it too was in need of refresher training.

Some private aircraft had been requested for Army use and had been flown east towards Küstrin and Frankfurt – two crossings on the Oder with railways leading to Berlin to establish the whereabouts of the Poles.
None carried radio and none returned from their scouting missions.

Telegrams of ”get moving” was sent from Berlin to the West Front Army HQ's.

  Oh dear those early aircraft were so fragile and unreliable.  I think at least some of the German commanders will suspect that means trouble.  Wonder if the last bit about get moving was about sending those 4 corp east or the rest of the army to take Paris or a bit of both?

  I must admit that 4 corps was more than I realised and with the Landwehr which although elderly and poorly equipped will be defending their homes its going to get bloody for both sides on the Eastern or Polish front, whatever its called.  Of course this raises questions about how this movement will affect the offensive in the west.  Checking my WWI source book in the opening months there were 8 armies containing 25 corps.  As such 4 Corps, especially with forces already lost in the east, is a significant proportion.  It could be that some of the 4 will be taken from the southern front   Checking wiki it mentions the 1st army that historically defeated the Russian in E Prussia contained 4 corps so if this was lost in total that means 4 corps from the western front means 8 removed in total which would reduce the western front to 17 corp.  However would expect at least some of 1st army would be in E Prussia and not affected by the ISOT.

  One thing I thought of overnight.  While they probably won't have the best of relations with Czarist officers leading the Whites would they seek some sort of diplomatic relations with one or two of them with an attempt to get them to recognise both Polish independence and the current Polish borders.  They know that the Whites lost OTL and there might be news already, with the disappearance of foreign forces that had been helping the Whites that the situation could be worse - although the Soviets have also lost forces.  The Poles can't really supply equipment but they could supply information on weaponry, tactics and the like.  Even if the effect is just to make the Whites last longer and hence win time for the issue with Germany to be resolved and weaken the Soviets.

  The other obvious step, since Germany has determined on war with Poland would be to seek a formal alliance with the western powers.  Who if their started to realise what has happened to Russia and gotten info from their diplomats in Poland should be more than willing.

Get moving - was to get the last of the four corps (GD Reserve of 2 Army, 11 of 3 Army both right wing, 21 of 6 Army and I added 5 Reserve of 5 Army) of which two and a cavalry division is on their way) moving.

German losses at the moment is the East Prussian 8. Army which is isolated in East Prussia along some Landwehr and Reserve brigades. The German Posen Reserve and Landwehr units have been overwritten due to the ISOT which would amount to something like two divisions.

Getting moved is ultimately the North Army in Schleswig-Holstein of one Corps and one Corps equivalent - infantrywise, and the mentioned four corps (OTL  from the West Front which was taken one by one from one army each with two taken from the right wing swinging through Belgium into NE France. These have been ordered east prior to the capture of Liege so the right wing is weakened earlier but still the WF would contain some 21 corps.

Polish - Czarist officer alliance??? What have you been drinking? Though that may come around as the Entente isn't going to be able to support the Czarist Armies any longer - except in Vladivostok (will return to this). Poland may trade information for cooperation though I'm uncertain why they would do so. Didn't as far as I know OTL and the Poles did very well on their own - sort of. Ofc it would be nice to keep the Czarist's into the game for as long as possible to have a clear back - so possibly yes.

An alliance with the Entente will be wanted by the Poles - will be difficult to support them from the West materially - something will come up soon on that. The main issue for Poland would be to hold the Entente onto defeat of Germany ie. no seperate peace and Germany goes East following leaving A-L to France and Belgium to itself. Possible? I doubt it somewhat.

Polish may decry the Entente to USA, Japan and the Czarist Forces as well as anybody else wanting to listen - Czechs, Hungarians, Serbs, Greeks etc.

[575]

Poland 11 August
As the Polish Cavalry Brigades closed on Frankfurt a.d. Oder and Dammvorstadt they were shot at which wasn't a surprise as the Airrecconnaisance had informed them that the troops of the two barracks of Frankfurt had been moving out early.
With their information the two Cavalry Brigades would encircle the defenders and destroy them then resume their march for the bridges on the Oder which were still standing.
The Cavalry Brigades pressed on capturing both bridges intact. Then sending out scouting groups and entreching their Machineguns and AT-guns to the west of Frankfurt a.d. Oder.

The forward element of the Tank Regiment consisting of a Squadron of 20 FT-17 armed with 37mm short guns were loaded onto truck tanktransporters each towing a trailer with another FT-17.
The Tank Squadron had 5 Platoons – one the Command Platoon. This small unit had also gotten its own reconnaisance unit of 5 Potez 25 reconnaisance bombers each carrying four 50 kg bombs.
The remainder of the Tank Regiment was mainly carried on flat-waggons towed by the two armoured trains allotted the attack force. One of these was going towards Küstrin as this was the other main railway west – east from Berlin; the other going over Frankfurt a.d. Oder which also had a main line for Breslau.

The Küstrin force was alotted a Cavalry Brigade as scouting force and two Infantry Divisions along the Armoured train and part of the Tank Regiment. It was also alotted its own air reconnaisance unit.
If crossing the Oder at Küstrin would be possible the force would do so and then move up the Seelöwe Hights to dominate the terrain towards the west and Berlin. Crossing was lightly defended and the Küstrin force was soon across the Oder and bypassing the fortifications which hadn't been put on a war footing and manned properly.

The Modlin – Pomorze group of the Polish Army had moved up to the East Prussian border with Modlin group taking command of the Ilava sector and Pomorze the eastern. With a total of 9 Infantry Divisions (one guarding the Pommern border) and 5 Cavalry Brigades they outsized the German 8. Army of 8 Infantry and 1 Cavalry Divisions and held command of the air with the assigned reconnaisance/light bomber units and possible call on more from the Army Command.
Attack on this front hadn't been planned but the aggressive attitude of the East Prussia troops and time span before more German troops would arrive in theatre had decided the offensive.
Modlin group initiate the attack on German 1. Corps.
Pomorze group advance northwest on the railway pushing the 17. and 1. Reserve Corps back.
The use of air reconnaisance and bombing is a morale destroyer of the German troops.

The East Prussia campaign of roughly equal sized forces were decided by more modern Polish weapons mainly the airforce which were effective in pinpointing German positions and movements and able to operate unopposed.

[stevep]

Oct 27, 2024 13:42:42 GMT 575 said:

Oct 27, 2024 10:33:53 GMT stevep said:

  Oh dear those early aircraft were so fragile and unreliable.  I think at least some of the German commanders will suspect that means trouble.  Wonder if the last bit about get moving was about sending those 4 corp east or the rest of the army to take Paris or a bit of both?

  I must admit that 4 corps was more than I realised and with the Landwehr which although elderly and poorly equipped will be defending their homes its going to get bloody for both sides on the Eastern or Polish front, whatever its called.  Of course this raises questions about how this movement will affect the offensive in the west.  Checking my WWI source book in the opening months there were 8 armies containing 25 corps.  As such 4 Corps, especially with forces already lost in the east, is a significant proportion.  It could be that some of the 4 will be taken from the southern front   Checking wiki it mentions the 1st army that historically defeated the Russian in E Prussia contained 4 corps so if this was lost in total that means 4 corps from the western front means 8 removed in total which would reduce the western front to 17 corp.  However would expect at least some of 1st army would be in E Prussia and not affected by the ISOT.

  One thing I thought of overnight.  While they probably won't have the best of relations with Czarist officers leading the Whites would they seek some sort of diplomatic relations with one or two of them with an attempt to get them to recognise both Polish independence and the current Polish borders.  They know that the Whites lost OTL and there might be news already, with the disappearance of foreign forces that had been helping the Whites that the situation could be worse - although the Soviets have also lost forces.  The Poles can't really supply equipment but they could supply information on weaponry, tactics and the like.  Even if the effect is just to make the Whites last longer and hence win time for the issue with Germany to be resolved and weaken the Soviets.

  The other obvious step, since Germany has determined on war with Poland would be to seek a formal alliance with the western powers.  Who if their started to realise what has happened to Russia and gotten info from their diplomats in Poland should be more than willing.

Get moving - was to get the last of the four corps (GD Reserve of 2 Army, 11 of 3 Army both right wing, 21 of 6 Army and I added 5 Reserve of 5 Army) of which two and a cavalry division is on their way) moving.

German losses at the moment is the East Prussian 8. Army which is isolated in East Prussia along some Landwehr and Reserve brigades. The German Posen Reserve and Landwehr units have been overwritten due to the ISOT which would amount to something like two divisions.

Getting moved is ultimately the North Army in Schleswig-Holstein of one Corps and one Corps equivalent - infantrywise, and the mentioned four corps (OTL  from the West Front which was taken one by one from one army each with two taken from the right wing swinging through Belgium into NE France. These have been ordered east prior to the capture of Liege so the right wing is weakened earlier but still the WF would contain some 21 corps.

Polish - Czarist officer alliance??? What have you been drinking? Though that may come around as the Entente isn't going to be able to support the Czarist Armies any longer - except in Vladivostok (will return to this). Poland may trade information for cooperation though I'm uncertain why they would do so. Didn't as far as I know OTL and the Poles did very well on their own - sort of. Ofc it would be nice to keep the Czarist's into the game for as long as possible to have a clear back - so possibly yes.

An alliance with the Entente will be wanted by the Poles - will be difficult to support them from the West materially - something will come up soon on that. The main issue for Poland would be to hold the Entente onto defeat of Germany ie. no seperate peace and Germany goes East following leaving A-L to France and Belgium to itself. Possible? I doubt it somewhat.

Polish may decry the Entente to USA, Japan and the Czarist Forces as well as anybody else wanting to listen - Czechs, Hungarians, Serbs, Greeks etc.

 Well that will hurt in the western front although it might be mitigated somewhat by the lesser supply and logistical challenges of having less troops to support as they march deeper into allied territory.  Could be that the Belgium coastal region and Antwerp isn't pressed anything like as much as it was OTL as the high command will probably still seek to concentrate on the key function of the strike towards Paris to force French surrender. 

  I'm not expecting any alliance with the Whites, especially given the bulk of their commanders seem to have been politically extremely reactionary.  However I think it would make sense for the Poles to attempt some sort of political agreement as their both facing a common enemy in the communists.  OTL the Poles had the other borders secure with Germany and Austria defeated and a fair amount of help from the French especially.  Here their stronger, because of the 1930 date and not being in the chaos of largely building up a state in the middle of the aftermath of WWI but their also physically isolated from the west and facing a powerful if somewhat backwards imperial Germany as well as instability to the east and uncertainty elsewhere.

  There is a good basis for an alliance, especially since neither group would want the other to make a separate peace with Germany as that would be very dangerous for them.  There would be issues in that the 1914 west don't really know the state of this new Poland and hence its value, nor why their vital eastern ally is now in a chaotic civil war.  Also for the Poles they would want an alliance only against Germany.  They won't want to be dragged into war with Austria which the western powers might want given how isolated Serbia is here.  Therefore there are issues that could prevent any alliance but if overcome I think it would be beneficial to both sides.  Even a purely political alliance would help both parties while the allies, especially Britain has a lot of wealth and influence at this point which could be useful in aiding Poland.

  I can't see Poland decrying the entente if any agreement fails as it doesn't seem to benefit them.  It would anger the entente powers and also any attempt to appeal to groups in the Hapsburg empire would threaten the newly established peace agreement with them.  The US, deep into isolationism and Japan, a decade further back than the rest of the world and interesting in securing its own regional interests would find such actions irrelevant.  Also there should be some awareness that even if there's not an agreement Germany is a threat to both groups and possibly some sympathy for France given its aid in the struggle against the Soviets.

[stevep]

Oct 27, 2024 13:48:10 GMT 575 said:

Poland 11 August
As the Polish Cavalry Brigades closed on Frankfurt a.d. Oder and Dammvorstadt they were shot at which wasn't a surprise as the Airrecconnaisance had informed them that the troops of the two barracks of Frankfurt had been moving out early.
With their information the two Cavalry Brigades would encircle the defenders and destroy them then resume their march for the bridges on the Oder which were still standing.
The Cavalry Brigades pressed on capturing both bridges intact. Then sending out scouting groups and entreching their Machineguns and AT-guns to the west of Frankfurt a.d. Oder.

The forward element of the Tank Regiment consisting of a Squadron of 20 FT-17 armed with 37mm short guns were loaded onto truck tanktransporters each towing a trailer with another FT-17.
The Tank Squadron had 5 Platoons – one the Command Platoon. This small unit had also gotten its own reconnaisance unit of 5 Potez 25 reconnaisance bombers each carrying four 50 kg bombs.
The remainder of the Tank Regiment was mainly carried on flat-waggons towed by the two armoured trains allotted the attack force. One of these was going towards Küstrin as this was the other main railway west – east from Berlin; the other going over Frankfurt a.d. Oder which also had a main line for Breslau.

The Küstrin force was alotted a Cavalry Brigade as scouting force and two Infantry Divisions along the Armoured train and part of the Tank Regiment. It was also alotted its own air reconnaisance unit.
If crossing the Oder at Küstrin would be possible the force would do so and then move up the Seelöwe Hights to dominate the terrain towards the west and Berlin. Crossing was lightly defended and the Küstrin force was soon across the Oder and bypassing the fortifications which hadn't been put on a war footing and manned properly.

The Modlin – Pomorze group of the Polish Army had moved up to the East Prussian border with Modlin group taking command of the Ilava sector and Pomorze the eastern. With a total of 9 Infantry Divisions (one guarding the Pommern border) and 5 Cavalry Brigades they outsized the German 8. Army of 8 Infantry and 1 Cavalry Divisions and held command of the air with the assigned reconnaisance/light bomber units and possible call on more from the Army Command.
Attack on this front hadn't been planned but the aggressive attitude of the East Prussia troops and time span before more German troops would arrive in theatre had decided the offensive.
Modlin group initiate the attack on German 1. Corps.
Pomorze group advance northwest on the railway pushing the 17. and 1. Reserve Corps back.
The use of air reconnaisance and bombing is a morale destroyer of the German troops.

The East Prussia campaign of roughly equal sized forces were decided by more modern Polish weapons mainly the airforce which were effective in pinpointing German positions and movements and able to operate unopposed.

  Sounding good.  I wonder if against E Prussia the Poles might initially sit back on the defensive largely as their got a good chance of inflicting heavy losses on German attacks?  Possibly going on to seeking to advance when the opponents have weakened themselves.  Although given German control of the seas and that the Poles won't fully know how limited the ability in the short term to send reinforcements to E Prussia the Germans are they might think attacking and winning would secure their rear and also put pressure on Berlin to make peace.

[575]

Oct 27, 2024 23:29:32 GMT stevep said:

Oct 27, 2024 13:42:42 GMT 575 said:

Get moving - was to get the last of the four corps (GD Reserve of 2 Army, 11 of 3 Army both right wing, 21 of 6 Army and I added 5 Reserve of 5 Army) of which two and a cavalry division is on their way) moving.

German losses at the moment is the East Prussian 8. Army which is isolated in East Prussia along some Landwehr and Reserve brigades. The German Posen Reserve and Landwehr units have been overwritten due to the ISOT which would amount to something like two divisions.

Getting moved is ultimately the North Army in Schleswig-Holstein of one Corps and one Corps equivalent - infantrywise, and the mentioned four corps (OTL  from the West Front which was taken one by one from one army each with two taken from the right wing swinging through Belgium into NE France. These have been ordered east prior to the capture of Liege so the right wing is weakened earlier but still the WF would contain some 21 corps.

Polish - Czarist officer alliance??? What have you been drinking? Though that may come around as the Entente isn't going to be able to support the Czarist Armies any longer - except in Vladivostok (will return to this). Poland may trade information for cooperation though I'm uncertain why they would do so. Didn't as far as I know OTL and the Poles did very well on their own - sort of. Ofc it would be nice to keep the Czarist's into the game for as long as possible to have a clear back - so possibly yes.

An alliance with the Entente will be wanted by the Poles - will be difficult to support them from the West materially - something will come up soon on that. The main issue for Poland would be to hold the Entente onto defeat of Germany ie. no seperate peace and Germany goes East following leaving A-L to France and Belgium to itself. Possible? I doubt it somewhat.

Polish may decry the Entente to USA, Japan and the Czarist Forces as well as anybody else wanting to listen - Czechs, Hungarians, Serbs, Greeks etc.

 Well that will hurt in the western front although it might be mitigated somewhat by the lesser supply and logistical challenges of having less troops to support as they march deeper into allied territory.  Could be that the Belgium coastal region and Antwerp isn't pressed anything like as much as it was OTL as the high command will probably still seek to concentrate on the key function of the strike towards Paris to force French surrender. 

  I'm not expecting any alliance with the Whites, especially given the bulk of their commanders seem to have been politically extremely reactionary.  However I think it would make sense for the Poles to attempt some sort of political agreement as their both facing a common enemy in the communists.  OTL the Poles had the other borders secure with Germany and Austria defeated and a fair amount of help from the French especially.  Here their stronger, because of the 1930 date and not being in the chaos of largely building up a state in the middle of the aftermath of WWI but their also physically isolated from the west and facing a powerful if somewhat backwards imperial Germany as well as instability to the east and uncertainty elsewhere.

  There is a good basis for an alliance, especially since neither group would want the other to make a separate peace with Germany as that would be very dangerous for them.  There would be issues in that the 1914 west don't really know the state of this new Poland and hence its value, nor why their vital eastern ally is now in a chaotic civil war.  Also for the Poles they would want an alliance only against Germany.  They won't want to be dragged into war with Austria which the western powers might want given how isolated Serbia is here.  Therefore there are issues that could prevent any alliance but if overcome I think it would be beneficial to both sides.  Even a purely political alliance would help both parties while the allies, especially Britain has a lot of wealth and influence at this point which could be useful in aiding Poland.

  I can't see Poland decrying the entente if any agreement fails as it doesn't seem to benefit them.  It would anger the entente powers and also any attempt to appeal to groups in the Hapsburg empire would threaten the newly established peace agreement with them.  The US, deep into isolationism and Japan, a decade further back than the rest of the world and interesting in securing its own regional interests would find such actions irrelevant.  Also there should be some awareness that even if there's not an agreement Germany is a threat to both groups and possibly some sympathy for France given its aid in the struggle against the Soviets.

Thanks very much needed info.

Re A-H fighting I'd guess the Poles would make a reverse A-H vis a vis the Entente. They would have difficulty in negotiating A-H defences in the Carpathian mountains but also know that the Soviets might return in force against their eastern border once the White armies have been defeated. Even a Japanese alliance would be of little value in that case to divert Soviet troops.

[575]

Oct 27, 2024 23:31:36 GMT stevep said:

Oct 27, 2024 13:48:10 GMT 575 said:

Poland 11 August
As the Polish Cavalry Brigades closed on Frankfurt a.d. Oder and Dammvorstadt they were shot at which wasn't a surprise as the Airrecconnaisance had informed them that the troops of the two barracks of Frankfurt had been moving out early.
With their information the two Cavalry Brigades would encircle the defenders and destroy them then resume their march for the bridges on the Oder which were still standing.
The Cavalry Brigades pressed on capturing both bridges intact. Then sending out scouting groups and entreching their Machineguns and AT-guns to the west of Frankfurt a.d. Oder.

The forward element of the Tank Regiment consisting of a Squadron of 20 FT-17 armed with 37mm short guns were loaded onto truck tanktransporters each towing a trailer with another FT-17.
The Tank Squadron had 5 Platoons – one the Command Platoon. This small unit had also gotten its own reconnaisance unit of 5 Potez 25 reconnaisance bombers each carrying four 50 kg bombs.
The remainder of the Tank Regiment was mainly carried on flat-waggons towed by the two armoured trains allotted the attack force. One of these was going towards Küstrin as this was the other main railway west – east from Berlin; the other going over Frankfurt a.d. Oder which also had a main line for Breslau.

The Küstrin force was alotted a Cavalry Brigade as scouting force and two Infantry Divisions along the Armoured train and part of the Tank Regiment. It was also alotted its own air reconnaisance unit.
If crossing the Oder at Küstrin would be possible the force would do so and then move up the Seelöwe Hights to dominate the terrain towards the west and Berlin. Crossing was lightly defended and the Küstrin force was soon across the Oder and bypassing the fortifications which hadn't been put on a war footing and manned properly.

The Modlin – Pomorze group of the Polish Army had moved up to the East Prussian border with Modlin group taking command of the Ilava sector and Pomorze the eastern. With a total of 9 Infantry Divisions (one guarding the Pommern border) and 5 Cavalry Brigades they outsized the German 8. Army of 8 Infantry and 1 Cavalry Divisions and held command of the air with the assigned reconnaisance/light bomber units and possible call on more from the Army Command.
Attack on this front hadn't been planned but the aggressive attitude of the East Prussia troops and time span before more German troops would arrive in theatre had decided the offensive.
Modlin group initiate the attack on German 1. Corps.
Pomorze group advance northwest on the railway pushing the 17. and 1. Reserve Corps back.
The use of air reconnaisance and bombing is a morale destroyer of the German troops.

The East Prussia campaign of roughly equal sized forces were decided by more modern Polish weapons mainly the airforce which were effective in pinpointing German positions and movements and able to operate unopposed.

  Sounding good.  I wonder if against E Prussia the Poles might initially sit back on the defensive largely as their got a good chance of inflicting heavy losses on German attacks?  Possibly going on to seeking to advance when the opponents have weakened themselves.  Although given German control of the seas and that the Poles won't fully know how limited the ability in the short term to send reinforcements to E Prussia the Germans are they might think attacking and winning would secure their rear and also put pressure on Berlin to make peace.

The Poles are building up on the East Prussia border to defeat the German 8. Army there. Polish command (Pilsudski) had hoped for a quiet front area but the aggressive General v. Francois had changed the stakes and something had to be done.

Getting rid of East Prussia in the back and a place for German build up will be desired also with the reverence of East Prussia with the German Imperial family.

[575]

Warsaw 12 August
Both London and Paris had contacted Warsaw. Both interested in the Russian Civil War and of course Poland and what had brought it about.
Both Entente Governments had been briefed by letters and telegrams from their envoys as to the situation of Polands since 1918 and course the course of the Great War since its outbreak to the fall of Imperial Germany, A-H and Ottoman Empire.

Regarding the ongoing war Britain was offered an update on German Naval Codes; France so too as they already had broken the German Army ones.

With the ongoing German advance in Belgium and the border battles of eastern France both welcomed a possible ally in the east to draw off some of the German pressure. The already pulled out German Corps for the reinforcement of the East hadn't been felt yet on the frontline.

The news of the situation of A-H was also of much interest to the both as was the recap of the Italian wavering during 1914 only to by 1915 joining the Entente and still being unsatisfied with its position and also being a manpower sink of the British and French. Then the tale of Mussolini's take of power by 1922 and making Italy a Fascist state had them raise their eyebrows.

The story of Germany from Empire to revolutions and Republic to sliding towards a Nazi state or at least a politically deeply troubled nation also intrigued.

Yet the Soviet Union seemed a real danger by its aggression to rebuild Russian borders and the installment of revolutionary fervor in the working classes abroad.

That the USA had ended up the banker of both nations chocked the British and French.
The war with Germany had to be ended as soon as possible and with alliance with Poland that certainly seemed a possible.

Problem would be getting materiel into Poland with the Germans controlling the Baltic.
Something might be shipped by Scandinavian or Baltic ships by way of Lithuania if the Germans would leave them but such would probably be too much to hope for.
The other choice by way of the Straits and Romania were Thesalonika, Germany had put a spanner in the wrench regarding the Ottoman Empire with its donation of Goeben and Breslau in replacement of the British seized ships building for OE.
Greece but the railway only went up to Belgrade with no connection east besides the Danube which was out as a transport line.
Neigther would Montenegro be used for the lack of railways.
Basically Poland was on its own and only time would tell if a transport corridor of somekind somewhere could be established.
Perhaps railway transport could be organized through Norway-Sweden-Finland across the Bay of Finland and then through the Baltic states. That seemed the best proposition at the moment.

And then the Polish want of an alliance in the War against Germany – no separate peace negotiations with Germany that would leave Poland on its own was agreed to though the British and French were also pointing to that they were at war with A-H too.
The Poles referred to their war with the Soviets during 1919 which had ended up with them fighting for their existence on the Vistula and miraculously defeating the Soviet – mostly due to Soviet incompetence. The 1919 situation in Russia was described as more promising for the Soviets as the White, Czarist Armies had lost their Western allies.
With the Ottomans still alive and kicking that would certainly be problematic for General Denikin in Ukraine as his communication line to the West through the Straits had been broken. Basically the Soviets might overrun the White armies faster than the other time and then turn on Poland which might give the Poles more troubles than last time.
The Poles had no intention of having to fight a two-front war anymore than the Germans which result as now should be evident to the Entente Powers.
As such the Poles were not going to officially declare war on A-H if still at war with Germany but would of course take appropriate measures should the A-H partake in aggression against Poland.

The Polish mentioned that the Russian Imperial Family might still be alive – Polish intelligence being unsure of the date of the execution as several had been around but also that rumours were around that at least one of the Grand-duchess' might be alive.
The British representatives looked shocked at this.

Besically what the Poles told the Entente Powers representatives of 1914 was in line with the reports of their Envoys at Warsaw who had also briefed them prior to the meeting with Marshal Pilsudski.
Those prior briefings and reports were found to correspond rather closely to the attitude of the Marshal.

A formal alliance wasn't concluded at the moment but the Entente representatives would report to their Governments once returned to Paris and London who would then decide of whats to be proposed.

During the meeting Marshal Pilsudski was informed of the advance of German troops out of Berlin towards the Oder and their being halted at the Seelöwe Hights and west of Frankfurt a.d.O as well as the movement of German troops east into Pommern.
The reference to these news had the Entente representatives understand that Poland was very much into the fight against Germany.

Seelöwe Hights 12 August
The Landwehr Brigades marching out of Berlin was much cheered on by the population. There had been some airbombing since 7 August to destroy barricades being build. The Landwehr troops would go by train to Müncheberg west of the Seelöwe Hights and Spree west of Frankfurt a.d. Oder.
Detrained they had to march on by foot.
While still detraining troops of the Guards Wachtregiment was moving back from the Seelöwe Hights thanking them for coming and informing that the enemy was on the hights in numbers.
Also they had to look out for aircraft as such had also been spotted.
The Landwehr brigades went on the march though before reaching the hights they were bombed and strafed by aircraft.
The march stopped and the officers ordered their troops to entrench!

Outside Spree that happened too though here the commander kept going for a while before noticing morale breaking down and ordering a halt for entrenching to preserve whats left.

Further north the 9 Reserve Corps arrive at Stettin, Pommern and continue east towards the new border.
The Corps is supported by 5. Airship Detachment which is a balloon observer unit. The unit travel alongside the other parts of the Corps to be able to set up its manned balloons for observation of enemy units.