4 August 1914 - Poland of July 1930, Russia of June 1919 and Imperial Japan of 8 February 1905 ISOT

[575]

Lithuania 5 August 1919
The telegramme from the Polish Government to the Lithuanian Taryba – ruling council - informed of the events since 1919 that changed the borders regarding Vilnius and that the League of Nations had agreed to this change of border.
The Lituanian Government was informed that it would be wise to agree to these changes as it had also now a border disputed with Imperial Germany regarding Klaipeda/Liepaja port! Even if Imperial Germany was at war with Britain and France in the West as their time was August 1914.
Poland would be willing to cooperate with Lithuania upon its status quo regarding the border.

Now the Taryba better understood what was going on. Still fighting the Soviets and with the German troops gone they were on their own. The Estonians and Latvians had basically ejected the Soviets from their territories and the Lithuanian wanted so too. In their time the Poles and they had fought the Soviets not together but alongside each other – now they seemed to be on their own.
It was the NE corner of the land they needed to free of the Soviets.
The Poles claimed they had the lands which they during June 1919 had liberated from the Soviets – perhaps the Soviets were gone there too?
Perhaps they were able to do it on their own now? Some Polish borderguards had the day before told of no Soviets all the way to Daugaupils on the Polish side of the border which reached the Dvina river east of Daugaupils.

It was a present but they wouldn't be thanking the Poles!

[575]

Moscow 5 August 1919
Lenin looked around – somebody was responsible for the loss of troops on the Polish front even more problematic as the Russian White Armies were going on the offensive.

Somebody in Belarus had to be shot.

[575]

Tokyo 5 August 1904
The Japanese had been quite surprised as suddenly being 7 months ahead of yesterday though the August heath was welcome change from the February cold.
Britain had been reached by telegramme inquiring of the position of the British – Japanese Alliance. The British were very much still adhering to it and had asked the Japanese to partake in a joint attack on the German Interest area of China – Tsingtao.
The Japanese had wondered about the disappearance of Imperial Russians in Liaodong, China which had prompted a ”WHAT” from London.

Japan didn't mind a go at Tsingtao and then keeping it as prize.
The Chinese locals of Liaodong told the Japanese that there had been no Russians there since the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5 and the Japanese holding the area since had disappeared as the new Japanese had arrived in the area.
At this information the Japanese were confused.
A new telegramme was sent to London which informed the Japanese that they did indeed hold Liaodong Peninsular since 1905.
That left the Japanese totally confused.

[stevep]

Oct 18, 2024 10:46:34 GMT 575 said:

Oct 17, 2024 22:04:55 GMT stevep said:

  Well that definitely means war with Poland and it turning its full attention westward. 

  Not sure what the Germans can send without weakening the offensive in the west.  The only good side for Germany in this might be if it prevents the OTL counter-offensive in Alsace-Lorraine as the French attack stalled with horrendous losses.  However not sure how much attention that would be.

  In terms of the Polish tanks their weak but they will be new to the Germans as will be the air power - both in any ground attack role and in terms of scouting.  The Polish armour would be best used for exploitation of any break-through or counter attack after more traditional forces have defeated the Germans.  Also the Polish should have an information edge in terms of their radio and other such equipment being able to coordinate their forces better.

  The Poles won't be able to do much against the shore bombardment unless they have some subs possibly?

Actually the 4 Corps to be sent east is the OTL reinforcement that was cut down to three that arrived too late; depending on where drawn from these will require 2 weeks to arrive - OTL v. Moltke ordered 20 August three corps to be sent east, two corps one cavalry division sent off 26 August, first units arriving East Prussia 5 September.

This will of course deduct from German operations in the West - Guards Reserve Corps and 11. Corps being party to 2. and 3. Army both moving into Belgium, 21. Corps to 6. Army in Lorraine/Saarland. I don't see much helping the Germans ITTL as things go much to OTL though the East Front reinforcements will be ordered off 2 weeks early.

The Tanks won't be as much a bonus for the Poles as will air power - the Germans have virtually nil and the Poles have experience using their. There will be an initial Tank shock but then the German will learn to fire at them with field artillery.

Thing is that the Poles will have 1-2 weeks of manuevre depending on avaiting mobilization or just jumping off though probably realities will cut it down a week for units to be ready and orders given.

The Polish intelligence were quite efficient it seems so I'd give them some edge in the sphere.

The Polish subs are still building/fitting out with one becoming operational 1931 and the second the following year - the Baltic is a German lake and East Prussia can be supplied by ship though the Poles may try bombing such.

  Ah well, pity about the subs but just a thought.  As you say the Baltic is a German lake, especially with the size of the HSF and the disappearance of the Russian navy.

  I think the trigger will be the German bombardment of the Polish coastline, possibly backed by attacks from either side of the corridor as naval forces can move quickly for such operations and it will make clear to the Poles that war is occurring.  They will probably start some precautionary mobilization simply because the world is in a clear state of chaos and Poland suddenly finds themselves in the middle of what is to them an historical crisis.  However where they try and attack and with what effectiveness I don't know.  Do they try and secure the industrial region of Silesia, or at least the bit they already hold, seek to maintain a corridor to the sea and possibly expand it by overrunning E Prussia before it becomes too strongly reinforced - although there are some strong fortress locations there - drive for Berlin, something else or some combination.  I can't see them simply sitting back on the defensive.

  Also do they seek to avoid war with A-H?  Probably unlikely but could be beneficial to both Warsaw and Vienna.

  With those forces sent east will L&H go with them?  This could be important given the role Ludendorff had in the early victory at the Liège fortifications?

[575]

I think that was getting us all up to a common view of the Situation of 1905, 1914, 1919, 1930!

Some confusion in and around Lithuania.

So the Soviets have lost troops in their 1919 war with Poland that have been overwritten by the ISOT; Lithuania have gotten a new border with Poland and facing only a demoralized Soviet force in the NE corner of its nation; the White Russian Armies are on the march but have lost their 1919 Western and Japanese Allies.

[stevep]

Oct 18, 2024 13:46:34 GMT 575 said:

Moscow 5 August 1919
Lenin looked around – somebody was responsible for the loss of troops on the Polish front even more problematic as the Russian White Armies were going on the offensive.

Somebody in Belarus had to be shot.

  Was there anyone significant there at the time?  Such as a certain Georgian?   Someone's going to suffer. 

  I think if there wasn't war with Germany the Poles would like to secure and probably expand their eastern border and get rid of the Bolsheviks, although this would probably result in a unified Russia under White control which is likely to be as significant a threat to their security as imperial Germany to their west.  As usual Poland is caught between a rock and a hard place, if not now then in the future probably. They might have the intelligence to try and set up a Ukrainian state as a buffer/ally but will they realise that?

  Love the confusion in Tokyo.  A bit surprised communications with London are their initial sources of information as to what's up but the mutual WTF reaction on both sides is likely and they should be able to sort something out.  It could also be confusing for the diplomatic staff on both sides who find their in a different time [Brits in Japan and Japanese in Britain - or anywhere outside the Japanese empire as of 1904.]

  Which relates to another point that hasn't been mentioned yet.  There's going to be a lot of people out of place/time with also a far number who are duplicated and quite possibly some having triple revisions of themselves about.  Which is going to cause all the usual human and other issues.

  Good idea for the Poles to seek to secure their NE flank with communications with Lithuania.  Its in both sides interests to avoid clashing with each other with threats to both of them.

[575]

Oct 18, 2024 13:52:17 GMT stevep said:

Oct 18, 2024 10:46:34 GMT 575 said:

Actually the 4 Corps to be sent east is the OTL reinforcement that was cut down to three that arrived too late; depending on where drawn from these will require 2 weeks to arrive - OTL v. Moltke ordered 20 August three corps to be sent east, two corps one cavalry division sent off 26 August, first units arriving East Prussia 5 September.

This will of course deduct from German operations in the West - Guards Reserve Corps and 11. Corps being party to 2. and 3. Army both moving into Belgium, 21. Corps to 6. Army in Lorraine/Saarland. I don't see much helping the Germans ITTL as things go much to OTL though the East Front reinforcements will be ordered off 2 weeks early.

The Tanks won't be as much a bonus for the Poles as will air power - the Germans have virtually nil and the Poles have experience using their. There will be an initial Tank shock but then the German will learn to fire at them with field artillery.

Thing is that the Poles will have 1-2 weeks of manuevre depending on avaiting mobilization or just jumping off though probably realities will cut it down a week for units to be ready and orders given.

The Polish intelligence were quite efficient it seems so I'd give them some edge in the sphere.

The Polish subs are still building/fitting out with one becoming operational 1931 and the second the following year - the Baltic is a German lake and East Prussia can be supplied by ship though the Poles may try bombing such.

  Ah well, pity about the subs but just a thought.  As you say the Baltic is a German lake, especially with the size of the HSF and the disappearance of the Russian navy.

  I think the trigger will be the German bombardment of the Polish coastline, possibly backed by attacks from either side of the corridor as naval forces can move quickly for such operations and it will make clear to the Poles that war is occurring.  They will probably start some precautionary mobilization simply because the world is in a clear state of chaos and Poland suddenly finds themselves in the middle of what is to them an historical crisis.  However where they try and attack and with what effectiveness I don't know.  Do they try and secure the industrial region of Silesia, or at least the bit they already hold, seek to maintain a corridor to the sea and possibly expand it by overrunning E Prussia before it becomes too strongly reinforced - although there are some strong fortress locations there - drive for Berlin, something else or some combination.  I can't see them simply sitting back on the defensive.

  Also do they seek to avoid war with A-H?  Probably unlikely but could be beneficial to both Warsaw and Vienna.

  With those forces sent east will L&H go with them?  This could be important given the role Ludendorff had in the early victory at the Liège fortifications?

I would have liked a Polish sub or two - too.

I have the Polish answer ready and have tried to think of stuff that might surprise the 1914 world - and perhaps this one too.

There is also some possible problems in the East when the Russian Civil War is at some end.

The Poles will try avoid war with A-H and A-H will need to seriously consider this. Think the Polish retaliation on the Germans may have an impact.

There have been no crisis in East Prussia as OTL so v. Prittwitz and chief of staff v. Waldersee will still be in charge in EP though somebody else would be found for the new Army - Hindenburg and ?

Ludendorff would only make a name of himself with the capture of the Liege fort on August 7 though ITTL he may still. Let's just stay OTL on this one.

[575]

Oct 18, 2024 14:11:08 GMT stevep said:

Oct 18, 2024 13:46:34 GMT 575 said:

Moscow 5 August 1919
Lenin looked around – somebody was responsible for the loss of troops on the Polish front even more problematic as the Russian White Armies were going on the offensive.

Somebody in Belarus had to be shot.

  Was there anyone significant there at the time?  Such as a certain Georgian?   Someone's going to suffer. 

  I think if there wasn't war with Germany the Poles would like to secure and probably expand their eastern border and get rid of the Bolsheviks, although this would probably result in a unified Russia under White control which is likely to be as significant a threat to their security as imperial Germany to their west.  As usual Poland is caught between a rock and a hard place, if not now then in the future probably. They might have the intelligence to try and set up a Ukrainian state as a buffer/ally but will they realise that?

  Love the confusion in Tokyo.  A bit surprised communications with London are their initial sources of information as to what's up but the mutual WTF reaction on both sides is likely and they should be able to sort something out.  It could also be confusing for the diplomatic staff on both sides who find their in a different time [Brits in Japan and Japanese in Britain - or anywhere outside the Japanese empire as of 1904.]

  Which relates to another point that hasn't been mentioned yet.  There's going to be a lot of people out of place/time with also a far number who are duplicated and quite possibly some having triple revisions of themselves about.  Which is going to cause all the usual human and other issues.

  Good idea for the Poles to seek to secure their NE flank with communications with Lithuania.  Its in both sides interests to avoid clashing with each other with threats to both of them.

Trotsky was the head of Bolchevik Army 1919 - the Georgian had some other role but would be a candidate had it been 1920. With problems growing I don't think it would be wise to shoot the Supremo but find somebody in theater.

Agree Poland may end up in a pinch - they had too many issues it seems with the Ukrainians at the time it seems to me. Intermarum?

Guess the Japanese taking Vladivostok may ease the pain of the Poles - it just sits there un-guarded. And it a long march for the Soviets through Siberia.

Yes the doubles - have only given it slight thought but I would like to rule that those in the late era - 1930 will take precedence, then 1919, then 1914, then 1905. Which could also create some interesting effects.

That Polish - Lithuanian War suddenly suprised me. Some hours of research to unravel.

Something on Polish codebreaking Enigma also supplied me with data for Hitler attack France in 1939

[575]

Gdynia 7 August 1914
The roar of heavy guns from the sea awoke the inhabitants of the Polish port city. The German cruisers of the Baltic Squadron pounded that and the other few Polish ports to wreck them and any shipping within them including the small Polish Navy.

With his Navy destroyed Marshal Pilsudski ordered borders closed, telegraph lines out of the country closed and general mobilisation.
He also ordered the Army Bomber Brigade to make a retaliatory bombing of Berlin during the day!
Pilsudski had had a faint hope of the Germans going cautiously due to the major offensive in the West but they had asked for it.
East Prussia would be sealed off landward but would still be receiving supplies by ship and not much he could do about it. With Imperial Russia gone the Baltic was free of enemy Submarines and a German lake – damn it!

The Polish General Staff had drawn up plans for the situation of course though it had reckoned with only the Weimar German Army of 1 Infantry division in East Prussia and 3 Infantry and 2 Cavalry divisions in Silesia and Brandenburg.
Now they had to deal with German 8. Army of 3 active and 1 reserve Corps in East Prussia though virtually no troops except Borderguards and Landwehr formations east of Berlin. Initially the bulk of the Bomber Brigade would be detailled to this operation as the Air units of 1914 Germany was few and no fighters.
Only two armoured trains would be detaillied to the operations as these would most probably be better used in the East as had been the case 1919-21.
It would probably be a week or two before substantial reinforcements would reach Berlin – so perhaps a daring heavy raid of the Tank Regiment and 3 Cavalry Brigades and 4 Infantry divisions would be able to reach the Seelöwe hights east of Berlin before German reinforcements would arrive in numbers. The Army Fighter Brigade would support the raid with basically a reconnaisance mission to pinpoint German positions and possible arriving reinforcements.

The standing Army would have to jump off with on hand numbers and reserves to fill ranks would arrive within a week.

The 2 Mountain Divisions of Carpathian area would seal off the mountains from A-H interference though such wouldn't be expected. With the loss of three armies and probably still indecisive about what to do with 2. Army that should suffice. Of course reconnaisance Air Squadrons was detailled to the area as was the case in Kresy in the East.

Vistula gunboats would immediately move toward the mouth of the river and Danzig to block the German Army from crossing it and be ready to shell the east bank should the Polish Army decide to cross it.

[575]

Berlin 7 August 730 PM
Very few peoples even heard the three Polish Fokker F-VII/3m bombers and 3 Potez XIX reconnaisance bombers arriving in the air over the German capital around 7 PM.
Each Fokker carrying 4x 100 kg bombs and each Potez 4x 12,5 kg ones which they dropped over central Berlin.
The aircraft had barely made the flight during the light hours and had to land in the growing darkness once returned to base at Poznan.
Most Berliners in the suburb's didn't know of the attack untill reading their morning news. Central Berlin had seen the Fire Brigade moving out on calls as did the Police. Damage was slight and scattered though one street cafe had been hit with almost 20 dead and wounded.

The Army HQ was notified by Police early on and info ran all the way to the top during the late evening reaching his Imperial Highness at 9 PM sending him into a rage.

The Polish airmen had little idea about how much damage had been done as they had plenty doing looking out for potential German aircraft and getting navigation right in the gathering darkness on the way home.
Once back at Poznan they were told to get a nights sleep and be ready in the morning to fly to Gdynia for getting torpedoes fitted to their Fokker bombers.

It is only late in the night that somebody in Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office) digs up a cable from the German Envoy in Warsaw which had been filed as a Russian hoax.
Now it is sent up the chain for the Min of Foreign Affairs to inform Government and Emperor.

[575]

Bombed up Fokker F-VII/3m:



Dutch one - caption say 700 kg max bombload as 3x 100 kg, 8x 50 kg but the Dutch also fiddled with it as a torpedobomber so the Poles could have changed the loadout.

[stevep]

Oct 19, 2024 11:32:14 GMT 575 said:

Berlin 7 August 730 PM
Very few peoples even heard the three Polish Fokker F-VII/3m bombers and 3 Potez XIX reconnaisance bombers arriving in the air over the German capital around 7 PM.
Each Fokker carrying 4x 100 kg bombs and each Potez 4x 12,5 kg ones which they dropped over central Berlin.
The aircraft had barely made the flight during the light hours and had to land in the growing darkness once returned to base at Poznan.
Most Berliners in the suburb's didn't know of the attack untill reading their morning news. Central Berlin had seen the Fire Brigade moving out on calls as did the Police. Damage was slight and scattered though one street cafe had been hit with almost 20 dead and wounded.

The Army HQ was notified by Police early on and info ran all the way to the top during the late evening reaching his Imperial Highness at 9 PM sending him into a rage.

The Polish airmen had little idea about how much damage had been done as they had plenty doing looking out for potential German aircraft and getting navigation right in the gathering darkness on the way home.
Once back at Poznan they were told to get a nights sleep and be ready in the morning to fly to Gdynia for getting torpedoes fitted to their Fokker bombers.

It is only late in the night that somebody in Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office) digs up a cable from the German Envoy in Warsaw which had been filed as a Russian hoax.
Now it is sent up the chain for the Min of Foreign Affairs to inform Government and Emperor.

  Ah well it sounds like the German government are going to find out something about the hornet's nest their just unleashed.  Also some details about the history of the war ahead of them, albeit with considerable changes.  They will also get some idea of the enigma machine, which would make their correspondence pretty much unbreakable.  I don't know if your looking that far 'ahead' but that would almost certainly make the Zimmerman telegraph truly secret.

  I would expect the German leadership to double down rather than try and moderate their actions, at least in the short term.  That they can avoid the disaster of 1918 with this additional knowledge to not make the mistakes they did and with a smaller and they would think weaker Poland rather than imperial Russia.  Whether some of the civilian politicians might think differently when they find out some of the details could be a different matter but how strong a united front they might be able to establish and how much power they would have is uncertain, especially in this period.

  One thing here is what do they do about USW?  Do they avoid it or decide to commit to it earlier.  Ditto with gas warfare.  I suspect in both cases they will seek to push ahead with such methods.  How they might change their actions on the western front in 1914 I don't know.  Do they still push for Paris, seek an encircling move as in the initial plan, rein things back a bit to avoid some of the losses.

  I wonder if as news spread Vienna might seek an exit from the war as it leads to total disaster for them.  However that would mean abandoning Germany, which I suspect Franz Joseph and his immediate advisers would be unwilling to do as they would feel both moral commitments on a matter of honour and also because their the only reliable ally Austria has.  Plus there would still be the desire to punish Serbia for the FF assassination.  They will no doubt want to avoid a war with Poland but given the level of hostilities that will be growing quite rapidly that could be difficult.

  I'm also thinking about what the Ottomans do?  They have a military dictatorship that is looking to revive the empire and expand it if they get the chance and here, with Russia in chaos they would see chances to take over parts of the former Soviet empire, especially in the Caucasus region.  At the same time they will hear of how disastrous the war was for the empire, destroying it completely, leading also to a Greek invasion -albeit the news from Poland will report the defeat of the latter. It could go either way.

  Similarly with the most notorious issue of the Turkish involvement in the war, the Armenian genocide, while the OTL excuse isn't there - to excuse the fiasco of the defeat Enver Pasha inflicted on his own army with his attempt at a poorly supplied offensive in NE Anatolia in winter - there is a desire in a number of the Young Turk leaders to 'resolve' the Armenian problem.  Also since it and the later Assyrian massacre are going to become known, although the Armenian one is by far the most famous will become fairly well known there will be pressure from parts of the rest of the world to prevent it but a number of the allied powers would also have an interest in keeping the Turks neutral.  Albeit that the primary reason for desire to keep them neutral, to keep the straits open to Russia is now redundant.  Could be a hell of a lot of things at work here.

[stevep]

Oct 19, 2024 11:42:42 GMT 575 said:

Bombed up Fokker F-VII/3m:



Dutch one - caption say 700 kg max bombload as 3x 100 kg, 8x 50 kg but the Dutch also fiddled with it as a torpedobomber so the Poles could have changed the loadout.

  The torpedo option could be interesting and give the Germans a nasty shock, but also possibly ideas.  However I doubt that there will be enough numbers to make a real impact, at least within a short term, either of aircraft or torpedoes.

[575]

Oct 19, 2024 13:05:54 GMT stevep said:

Oct 19, 2024 11:32:14 GMT 575 said:

Berlin 7 August 730 PM
Very few peoples even heard the three Polish Fokker F-VII/3m bombers and 3 Potez XIX reconnaisance bombers arriving in the air over the German capital around 7 PM.
Each Fokker carrying 4x 100 kg bombs and each Potez 4x 12,5 kg ones which they dropped over central Berlin.
The aircraft had barely made the flight during the light hours and had to land in the growing darkness once returned to base at Poznan.
Most Berliners in the suburb's didn't know of the attack untill reading their morning news. Central Berlin had seen the Fire Brigade moving out on calls as did the Police. Damage was slight and scattered though one street cafe had been hit with almost 20 dead and wounded.

The Army HQ was notified by Police early on and info ran all the way to the top during the late evening reaching his Imperial Highness at 9 PM sending him into a rage.

The Polish airmen had little idea about how much damage had been done as they had plenty doing looking out for potential German aircraft and getting navigation right in the gathering darkness on the way home.
Once back at Poznan they were told to get a nights sleep and be ready in the morning to fly to Gdynia for getting torpedoes fitted to their Fokker bombers.

It is only late in the night that somebody in Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office) digs up a cable from the German Envoy in Warsaw which had been filed as a Russian hoax.
Now it is sent up the chain for the Min of Foreign Affairs to inform Government and Emperor.

  Ah well it sounds like the German government are going to find out something about the hornet's nest their just unleashed.  Also some details about the history of the war ahead of them, albeit with considerable changes.  They will also get some idea of the enigma machine, which would make their correspondence pretty much unbreakable.  I don't know if your looking that far 'ahead' but that would almost certainly make the Zimmerman telegraph truly secret.

  I would expect the German leadership to double down rather than try and moderate their actions, at least in the short term.  That they can avoid the disaster of 1918 with this additional knowledge to not make the mistakes they did and with a smaller and they would think weaker Poland rather than imperial Russia.  Whether some of the civilian politicians might think differently when they find out some of the details could be a different matter but how strong a united front they might be able to establish and how much power they would have is uncertain, especially in this period.

  One thing here is what do they do about USW?  Do they avoid it or decide to commit to it earlier.  Ditto with gas warfare.  I suspect in both cases they will seek to push ahead with such methods.  How they might change their actions on the western front in 1914 I don't know.  Do they still push for Paris, seek an encircling move as in the initial plan, rein things back a bit to avoid some of the losses.

  I wonder if as news spread Vienna might seek an exit from the war as it leads to total disaster for them.  However that would mean abandoning Germany, which I suspect Franz Joseph and his immediate advisers would be unwilling to do as they would feel both moral commitments on a matter of honour and also because their the only reliable ally Austria has.  Plus there would still be the desire to punish Serbia for the FF assassination.  They will no doubt want to avoid a war with Poland but given the level of hostilities that will be growing quite rapidly that could be difficult.

  I'm also thinking about what the Ottomans do?  They have a military dictatorship that is looking to revive the empire and expand it if they get the chance and here, with Russia in chaos they would see chances to take over parts of the former Soviet empire, especially in the Caucasus region.  At the same time they will hear of how disastrous the war was for the empire, destroying it completely, leading also to a Greek invasion -albeit the news from Poland will report the defeat of the latter. It could go either way.

  Similarly with the most notorious issue of the Turkish involvement in the war, the Armenian genocide, while the OTL excuse isn't there - to excuse the fiasco of the defeat Enver Pasha inflicted on his own army with his attempt at a poorly supplied offensive in NE Anatolia in winter - there is a desire in a number of the Young Turk leaders to 'resolve' the Armenian problem.  Also since it and the later Assyrian massacre are going to become known, although the Armenian one is by far the most famous will become fairly well known there will be pressure from parts of the rest of the world to prevent it but a number of the allied powers would also have an interest in keeping the Turks neutral.  Albeit that the primary reason for desire to keep them neutral, to keep the straits open to Russia is now redundant.  Could be a hell of a lot of things at work here.

Easy bro, easy we are only at day 3 of ISOT!

The telegramme from envoy Rauscher wouldn't be by enigma as the Imperial Germans would have no machine and no codebooks. Its just a telegramme as already mentioned carefully written by Rauscher as he wanted as normal relations with Poland as possible. Rauscher had sent his telegramme day 1 so I don't think he would have much knowledge of the situation around the World.

Agree that he could put in warnings about how the war might go if politics didn't change. Such may well fuel the Imperial Germans to actually try defeat Poland as fast as possible.

The Enigma machine was originally a commercial tool and only later entering state service so I don't see it going to aid the Imperial Germans unless some embassy clerk gets off with the embassy machine in his briefcase - though that may happen.

The Ottomans have by now realized that something is was different in the Caucasus and most possibly eager to take advantage.

Don't know when the Turks may go rampaging on their minorities but its well a possible - if war in Caucasus goes bloody they may take it out in the Armenians fairly early.

Basically I would expect the Polish Army to be on the Seelöwe Hights east of Berlin when the West Front reserves arrive in the city.

[575]

Oct 19, 2024 13:09:23 GMT stevep said:

Oct 19, 2024 11:42:42 GMT 575 said:

Bombed up Fokker F-VII/3m:



Dutch one - caption say 700 kg max bombload as 3x 100 kg, 8x 50 kg but the Dutch also fiddled with it as a torpedobomber so the Poles could have changed the loadout.

  The torpedo option could be interesting and give the Germans a nasty shock, but also possibly ideas.  However I doubt that there will be enough numbers to make a real impact, at least within a short term, either of aircraft or torpedoes.

I would go with the torpedo option along the Airpower display over Berlin in the situation - it may be severe for Imperial German morale and make/force them to act without caution.